the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
mogg
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mogg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:57 am

knitted wrote:I believe it is no longer simply an issue of preventing cruelty to animals. Resources are so scarce that our current habits will destroy us all. I find myself less and less willing to eat anything that we do not grow or cook ourselves, or comes from local ingredients. Mass production = mass extinction.
Frankly I'm not really worried about mass extinction...its a certainty for all life on Earth regardless of what we do. Our concern shouldn't be trying to fix samsara (leave that to the Christians), our goal is to end suffering here and now.
Samsara is broken. It cannot be fixed.

I adhere to the precepts and eat meat occasionally. What goes into my mouth isn't my primary conern.

With metta

corrine
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by corrine » Thu May 09, 2013 5:57 pm

About that whole living in Alaska thing. A dear friend lived in Tok, Alaska for several years. She was vegetarian. She had a large greenhouse thing going and grew all sorts of veggies all year. In addition, and this was back in the sixties when it was more difficult, she ordered large amounts of wheat, grains, dried beans etc. for long term storage. She did okay. She also ordered cartons of books this way as she had no television or electronics as we do now. Today I imagine it would be quite easy. Just get the equipment and move forward.

There is always a way should one wish to avoid harming other living things. Ethical behavior is not always easy but it is usually doable should one wish to make the effort. I think sometimes we just look for excuses to do as we please.

corrine

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Zenainder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Zenainder » Wed May 29, 2013 10:08 pm

Unfortunately in my current conditioned thought I am a savage, although I've become more interested in organic choices, including a reduction of red meats and more fish / chicken. I've considered easing into becoming vegetarian, but I am not there yet. I do often think of the animals that suffered at the stake for my nourishment. Maybe one day? :shrug:

person
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by person » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:17 pm

Has anyone read this:
http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.com/2012/ ... odoxy.html by Eisel Mazard?
If so, what did they think? I found it somewhat unclear, but the author seems very knowledgeable, so I would like to understand what he is saying.

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mojo » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:32 pm

I'm considering moving from an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet to a vegan one. I'm going to discuss it wit my doctor at my next physical.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:18 pm

Personally, the main benefit of defending vegetarians and vegetarianism on these forums is I've gone from a partial vegetarian, eating only a little chicken, to a full vegetarian, lots of cheese and eggs, though.

I think the message of the buddha is to eat as little meat as you can be comfortable with, some of us have felt certain health benefit to eating meat, some of us are so addicted to meat that we couldn't imagine going without it, but the killing and eating of animals does have a karmic negative, the Buddha taught that, so eat less if you eat a lot, thats a bigger step than me eliminating the little I was eating, All food production involves the killing of some small creatures, but eating farmed animals involves the killing of a lot more small creatures and the actual animal you are eating as well, think of cows and pigs as you would your dog or cat. They didn't ask to be on your plate. and you don't need their distressed hormones running through your body.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Vern Stevens
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Vern Stevens » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:03 pm

I personally enjoy reading the responses in this thread that do not include egotistic judgment of the meat-eater and that focus more on the Dharma. Attempts to employ guilt tactics can be awfully counter-productive. My understanding of Buddhism is that people need our compassion and understanding, not our condescension and derision. This is not to suggest that the animals being consumed do not also need compassion as well, they do. And yes, I do understand this can be an emotionally charged issue for folks on both sides. But these kinds of changes can be very difficult for people to make and sometimes a reduction in meat consumption (versus outright elimination) is the best they can manage. Just because I or you can do something, doesn't mean it is that easy for the next person.

In my case, about a year ago my diet was very meat-centric. I would have meals almost entirely of meat and very little veggies (and the veggies I had were starchy and not the "good" ones). Now I'm down to one side of a chicken breast a day (2 meals with meat, 1 without). Lots of whole food veggies, fruits, nuts, and some beans. I'm not there yet, but for the first time I am considering vegetarian and I can see it as a possibility. Additionally, I've read different opinions that suggest a healthy transition to vegetarianism can take some time for those who are committed to make the change.

Thank you kind forum-dwellers.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:25 pm

Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain, The arguement has one flaw, the number of chickens you would have to eat to be equivalent to the meat of one cow. Still Chicken or fish seems like a good compromise for someone who feels, like I used to, that their good health depends on eating some meat. SInce I've gone full vege my health hasn't improved, in fact I feel a little "deficient" in my diet, but I don't know if its a coincidence, but I have become more spiritual.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mojo » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:12 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain, The arguement has one flaw, the number of chickens you would have to eat to be equivalent to the meat of one cow. Still Chicken or fish seems like a good compromise for someone who feels, like I used to, that their good health depends on eating some meat. SInce I've gone full vege my health hasn't improved, in fact I feel a little "deficient" in my diet, but I don't know if its a coincidence, but I have become more spiritual.
Are you getting enough compete proteins (all the essential amino acids)? What about vitamin B12? Iron?

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:49 am

I've been a vegetarian most of my life, and was raised strict vegetarian, I eat plenty of Dairy, grains, and vegetables, B12 is really only a big problem for vegans, its in dairy, but I do take multivitamins, just to be safe. thanks for your consideration
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Ben
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Vegetarians live longer

Post by Ben » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:50 am

People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found. The study, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in June, followed 70,000 members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church over a six year period.
"Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality," the authors concluded. "Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/diet ... z2XNCu3w80
This is indeed interesting news.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

Greetings,
The Age wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found.
So only 88% of vegetarians die?

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

manas
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by manas » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:02 am

Yes, statistically this is true. In particular, I would encourage members to look up the connection between beef consumption, and bowel cancers. Even if one does eat meat, it might be worth considering eliminating red meat from the diet. Those colon bags attached to the body after surgery are not nice...really.

If one still feels compelled to eat red meat, it might help to have, at the same meal, a large (fibre-rich) serving of veggies and salad, to help push it through the colon, so I've heard. We don't want it putrefying in the bowels. But I would still recommend eliminating it entirely.

metta
:anjali:

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reflection
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by reflection » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:03 am

While I'm all for vegetarianism, those studies only show correlations. It doesn't show it is the diet per se that makes one live longer. Vegetarians in general also smoke and drink less, I think sport more, and in other ways are more conscious about their health.

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Ben
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Post by Ben » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The Age wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found.
So only 88% of vegetarians die?

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Oh, you are so funny!
All vegetarians die, Paul.
The study found that their mortality compared to non vegetarians is 12 percent lower.

A longer life to experience more dukkha or engage in Dhamma practice.
Relection wrote:While I'm all for vegetarianism, those studies only show correlations. It doesn't show it is the diet per se that makes one live longer. Vegetarians in general also smoke and drink less, I think sport more, and in other ways are more conscious about their health.
Diet was assessed at baseline by a quantitative food frequency questionnaire and categorized into 5 dietary patterns: nonvegetarian, semi-vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, lacto-ovo–vegetarian, and vegan.

There were 2570 deaths among 73 308 participants during a mean follow-up time of 5.79 years. The mortality rate was 6.05 (95% CI, 5.82-6.29) deaths per 1000 person-years. The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97). The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01); in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13) compared with nonvegetarians. Significant associations with vegetarian diets were detected for cardiovascular mortality, noncardiovascular noncancer mortality, renal mortality, and endocrine mortality. Associations in men were larger and more often significant than were those in women.
-- Vegetarian Dietary Patterns and Mortality in Adventist Health Study 2, JAMA Intern Med. 2013;():1-8. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2013.6473

Correlation or not, the evidence is compelling.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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