anatta and cetana and conditions for right view

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DAWN
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by DAWN » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:02 pm

Cetana is conditioned by kamma, and by so cetana is anatta.
Kamma is conditioned by cetana, and by so kamma is anatta.

We can not say that our cetana belong to us, cause it's conditioned.
We can not say that our kamma belong to us, cause it's conditioned.

Nothinkg belong to me :cry:

:smile: :anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:08 pm

Let me throw in some other ideas/questions:

1. I don't believe I have interacted with a Khun Sujin student who has not spent quite a while doing "conventional" meditation. Do such people exist? Perhaps the doing the meditation and realising that if often involves a great deal of clinging and wanting to control (which is certainly my experience, and, in my view is much of the point...) is a necessary precursor to KS's ideas making some sense. I certainly wouldn't be able to make any sense of it without such experiences.

2. I've also not met a KS "follower" who has not met her. Perhaps her teaching skill in person transcends the rather mechanical arguments that I tend to hear from her students.

3. As far as possible wrong view in the KS approach is concerned, I think that a valid question to ask would be whether this rejection of conventional meditation is a manifestation of the hindrance of doubt about the practices.

From the Commentary to the Samaññaphala Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#comm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is similar with one in whom doubt has arisen in regard to one of the eight objects of doubt. Doubting whether the Master is an Enlightened One or not, he cannot accept it in confidence, as a matter of trust. Unable to do so, he does not attain to the paths and fruits of sanctity.
  • The doubts are, according to the Vibhanga: doubt in regard to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the (threefold) training, the past, the future, both past and future, and the conditionality of phenomena dependently arisen.
:anjali:
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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:15 am

Dear Mike,

You said:
2. Whether some other activity recommended by my (hopefully) wise spiritual friends and teachers (and, it seems, by the Buddha, according to our reading of the Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentary) are done with correct understanding.
If there is truly understanding of the conditions for the arising of sati-panna, why the idea of other (selected) activity?
Listening (or reading) carefully the teaching on realities and wise consideration can give rise to firm theoretical understanding of them, which is one condition for sati to arise (as according to the Athasalini quoted in one of my previous posts). But no one can predict when and where sati which is directly aware of a reality will arise, and it does only when there's no expectation at all, with right understanding firmly established. So why some particular activities should be recommended?
Let me throw in some other ideas/questions
Thanks for your questions! I am a fairly new student of AS, compared to many others who have been with her for 10, 20,...40 years. I will try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, and others might correct if I am wrong
1. I don't believe I have interacted with a Khun Sujin student who has not spent quite a while doing "conventional" meditation. Do such people exist? Perhaps the doing the meditation and realising that if often involves a great deal of clinging and wanting to control (which is certainly my experience, and, in my view is much of the point...) is a necessary precursor to KS's ideas making some sense. I certainly wouldn't be able to make any sense of it without such experiences.
I don't know all of her students, it is hard to say...But Khun Sujin studied the Abhidhamma with Achaan Naeb around the age of 25, and somehow developed her own understanding of the Dhamma by her self. I never hear her mentionning any period of "doing meditation" previously. It must be then due to her great accumulations from the past....

As far as we, "yogis", are concerned, I think the problem is we started to practice without proper theoretical knowledge and understanding, just keep going with our own ideas about things, and our own (erroneous) interepretations.
2. I've also not met a KS "follower" who has not met her. Perhaps her teaching skill in person transcends the rather mechanical arguments that I tend to hear from her students.
Sure, AS doesn't teach simply by reasoning, she always relates to the present reality. IMHO, it is much more than skill, it is her deep understanding...
3. As far as possible wrong view in the KS approach is concerned, I think that a valid question to ask would be whether this rejection of conventional meditation is a manifestation of the hindrance of doubt about the practices.
It would be a proper question to ask: what conventional meditation exactly means? Actually, AS doesn't reject any particular activity. She just asks why? It is clear that people in the suttas were sitting in jhanna. But do we have the same accumulations than the Boddha and his disciples at that time? What did the Buddha teach to his lay, house-holders followers, and what did he teach to the bikkhus who were already in the forest and who had the accumulations to be so? The word "samatha" also has different meanings. A reading into the suttas will be very different if the understanding of realities is thorough like AS's. For example, the word "patipati" is usually translated as practice and commonly understood as someone doing something. But let's see how AS explains about this:
First of all I respectfully ask you to please determine whether you wish to study, listen and consider the dhamma to increase understanding of the dhamma or to practice with the self doing the practice. For without correctly understanding the dhamma, there is still the self to the fullest, then there is the desire to practice, without first conscientiously studying even the Pali term, pati-pati. Pati means specifically, and pati means to reach or to see. In reality pati-pati or to practice is to have sati arising to be aware when any reality arises and appears. The sati would be aware of the characteristics of the reality appearing respectively. The moment of seeing is not the instant of hearing, nor the instant of thinking; but a nama-dhamma reality that arises and falls away extremely rapidly. Therefore to be able to know the true characteristics of realities as not at all ourselves, since they are distinct kinds of realities that arise because of conditions and fall away swiftly as opposed to the selves who want to realize the arisings and falling aways. For there has to be panna, right understanding, samma-ditthi that has been developed unto the level that is able to know the truth about realities level by respective level.
So, according to this: patipati = moment of the arising of direct awareness of reality, by conditions.

Certainly, this has nothing to do with doubt, but rather a different understanding of the teaching, in conformity with the Buddha's teaching on D.O and anattaness.

For full discussions: http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/essay ... c4428.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:Mike,
let's look at the idea, often put forward, that there can be continuous mindfulness. Today on another thread you wrote that http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 73#p217473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" on retreats it can be very helpful to maintain mindfulness at all times.".
To me any idea of being able to maintain mindfulness, (or for that matter even make it arise for a moment) is wrong. It is opposed to the truth of anatta and the uncontrollabilty of phenomena. Sati of satipatthana always arises with sampajanna, wisdom, and specifically wisdom related to anatta.

robert
You typed this msg, which would then strongly suggest that "the truth of anatta and the uncontrollabilty of phenomena" might be something a bit different than what you seem to be suggesting.
dear Tilt
thanks for joining the discussion. The thing is we do all kinds of actions all day long,like writing a post, and yet without the Buddha's teaching we would always believe there was a self doing, deciding, acting.
------------

The story "typing a msg" is a concept. Even in one second so many dhammas have arisen and passed away. When we talk about long periods like writing a post it is countless. During the writing effort arose and fell away and each moment was different from the other - but because each moment also is one of the conditions (among many ) for the next this is not fully realised. There may have been some moments with kusala effort, some without, some with weak concentration (right or wrong) some with stronger. Moments of energy, moments of slightly less energy: and all usually taken as 'my' energy. Even when we talk about one brief moment this is a very complex thing many different conditions needed.

Take the act of seeing while you writing the msg. So many different moments of seeing and each moment conditioned:

"Firstly the eye element is a condition in six ways namely, dissociation, prenascence, presence, non-disapearance, support, and faculty for the eye-consciouness (cakkhu vi~n~nana) element. The visible object is a condition in four ways, namely, prenascent, presence, non-disappearance, and object for the eye- consciousness element"
Visuddhimagga XV 40

Then following that flash of seeing there are many mental processes similarly conditioned by several factors, none of which are in the control of anyone. And these conditioning factors are all likewise conditioned by many conditions. Because of ignorance of this the illusion of beings and self, like actors in an endless play, continues.

We can understand conceptually how this is by looking at bodily functions - say the way the body heals cuts - very complex, and if even one condition is not present then infection can arise and so other complex conditions are needed to heal. Yet nama (mentality) is more subtle than rupa and more complex:

"It would be better for the unlearned worldling to regard this body, built up of the four elements, as his self, rather than the mind. For it is evident that this body may last for a year, for two years, for three years, four, five, or ten years, or even a hundred years and more; but that which is called thought, or mind, or consciousness, is continuously, during day and night, arising as one thing, and passing away as another thing."
S. XII. 62

Robert

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:26 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Robert,

I don't mean that one can achieve sati at all times, if at all. I probably should not use "mindfulness" but some more generic term like "pay attention".

Mike
Dear Mike
the thing is, is that this idea that paying attention leads somehow to mindfulness needs to be examined. Attention arises with kusala and akusala and if we agree that akusala is more likley to arise (which it is) then all someone is doing by having more attention is increasing some special type of akusala or even magnifying the idea of a self who can control awareness to go here, arise there..

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by robertk » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:28 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Let me throw in some other ideas/questions:

1. I don't believe I have interacted with a Khun Sujin student who has not spent quite a while doing "conventional" meditation. Do such people exist? Perhaps the doing the meditation and realising that if often involves a great deal of clinging and wanting to control (which is certainly my experience, and, in my view is much of the point...) is a necessary precursor to KS's ideas making some sense. I certainly wouldn't be able to make any sense of it without such experiences.

2Mike
Dear mike
Nina van gorkom is well known and has never done any conventional meditation practice.

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by Alex123 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:29 pm

Hello Dhamma follower,
dhamma follower wrote:It is the view which is wrong. "I shall walk and sit maintaining sati". Sait does'nt arise because one decides to have it, but because of its own conditions.
And why isn't proper practice with right view are the conditions for more of it. Do you expect person who never meditates to have the same sati as someone who was, lets say, a meditating bhikkhu for 20 years?

Here is metaphor: A young kid wants to bench press 400 pounds. But he can't even lift 200 pounds. So he systematically trains, eats all the right food, does everything properly, and in number of years he can bench press it.

If he would say "I don't have conditions for bench pressing 400 pounds so I should not go to the gym" will he able to bench press 400 pounds?

Or another metaphor: A young kid is being beat up by big bullies. He joined karate and even though he was clumsy at first, after few years of intense training he became really skillful and defended himself.

If he would say "I am clumsy and weak, I can't defend myself, so I should not train" will he able to improve?
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by Alex123 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:33 pm

Hello Dhamma follower,
dhamma follower wrote:- why sitting on a cushion should be chosen as opposed to going to the market after listening to the right Dhamma?
Less external stimulation that can provoke defilements. Even when it comes to considering the Dhamma, it is easier to do it in a quite rather than loud and chaotic environment.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:26 pm

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote: dear Tilt
thanks for joining the discussion. The thing is we do all kinds of actions all day long,like writing a post, and yet without the Buddha's teaching we would always believe there was a self doing, deciding, acting.
Of course. And the question is what is the most effective choice to make in order to actually understand and see through that. It just seems to me that many KS students don't take seriously that this self belief can be based on a number of things, including the choices of action that the KS students make (speaking conventionally...). It seems to me that one can build a sense of self based on:

1. Clinging to the concept of a clever non-meditator who is just studying, listening, not meditating, and allowing the opportunity of hearing the correct Dhamma and having insight arise.
2. Clinging to the concept of a clever meditator who is just studying, listening, meditating, and allowing the opportunity of hearing the correct Dhamma and having insight arise.

Is there more danger in the latter or the former?

Is insight happening now? :thinking:

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:29 pm

robertk wrote: Nina van gorkom is well known and has never done any conventional meditation practice.
Thanks, that's interesting.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:53 pm

Dear Robert,
robertk wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Robert,

I don't mean that one can achieve sati at all times, if at all. I probably should not use "mindfulness" but some more generic term like "pay attention".

Mike
Dear Mike
the thing is, is that this idea that paying attention leads somehow to mindfulness needs to be examined. Attention arises with kusala and akusala and if we agree that akusala is more likley to arise (which it is) then all someone is doing by having more attention is increasing some special type of akusala or even magnifying the idea of a self who can control awareness to go here, arise there..
Of course. This is an important issue, and it's clear that such wrong view can be a serious problem. However, it is something that most teachers certainly do address (putting aside whether they get it exactly right...). No-one reputable that I'm aware of teaches "control of aggregates (or cittas)". All talk about causes an conditions for the arising of sati/samadhi/panna/etc.

Perhaps you could provide a clear canonical (or commentarial) reference for your assertion that:
akusala is more likley to arise (which it is)
and we could discuss how that might apply.



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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:27 am

Greeting Alex,
And why isn't proper practice with right view are the conditions for more of it. Do you expect person who never meditates to have the same sati as someone who was, lets say, a meditating bhikkhu for 20 years?
The question is: what is proper practice in term of paramatha dhamma?

Is staying in a kuti or a meditation hall, trying to focus on something, or having the idea that "I can direct sati while walking, sitting" what you call proper practice? All these things, when done with the idea that sati can arise at will, are more likely to be akusala moments rooted in wrong view. Is akusala the practice?

Also, your comment above implies that as long as we decide to have some activities called meditation, sati will be there. Is it so, or sati arises by its own conditions? What is the characteristics of sati, precisely? Here is the description on sati in the Atthasalini:
The Atthasalini then gives another definition of mindfulness:
... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.
Nina commented:
As we have seen, the Atthasalini states that the proximate cause of mindfulness is ill remembrance (sanna) or the four applications of mindfulness (satipatthana). There can be mindfulness of the nama or rupa which appears because of firm remembrance of all we learnt from the teachings about nama and rupa. Listening is mentioned in the scriptures as a most important condition for the attainment of enlightenment, because when we listen time and again, there can be firm remenbrance of the Dhamma. Mindfulness is different from remembrance, sanna. Sanna accompanies every citta; it recognizes the object and "marks" it, so that it can be recognized again. Mindfulness, sati, is not forgethe of what is wholesome. It arises with sobhana cittas. But when there is sati which is non-forgetfuI of dana, sila, of the object of calm or, in the case of vipassana, of the nama and rupa appearing at the present moment, there is also kusala sanna which remembers the object in the fight way, in the wholesome way.
http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:47 am

Alex123 wrote:Hello Dhamma follower,
dhamma follower wrote:- why sitting on a cushion should be chosen as opposed to going to the market after listening to the right Dhamma?
Less external stimulation that can provoke defilements. Even when it comes to considering the Dhamma, it is easier to do it in a quite rather than loud and chaotic environment.
Defilement is also object of satipatthana:
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by Alex123 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:15 am

Hello Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:Defilement is also object of satipatthana
Right, but at what stage? Beginner can simply get swept away by tide of defilements. It requires a very wise person to be able to observe them.

Just like a person who just joined a gym shouldn't attempt to lift too much, same is here.
dhamma follower wrote:The question is: what is proper practice in term of paramatha dhamma?
To observe things as they occur with wisdom.
dhamma follower wrote:Is staying in a kuti or a meditation hall, trying to focus on something,
Not everyone teaches that one should focus on something. Rather, be mindful of what is present to awareness right now.

dhamma follower wrote: or having the idea that "I can direct sati while walking, sitting" what you call proper practice?
How about doing this without delusive idea of "I am doing this".

dhamma follower wrote: Also, your comment above implies that as long as we decide to have some activities called meditation, sati will be there. Is it so, or sati arises by its own conditions?
Like weight training for more strength, conditions can be set for more sati.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: anatta and cetana (will, intention): Kamma negated?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:16 am

Hi DF,
dhamma follower wrote:
And why isn't proper practice with right view are the conditions for more of it. Do you expect person who never meditates to have the same sati as someone who was, lets say, a meditating bhikkhu for 20 years?
The question is: what is proper practice in term of paramatha dhamma?

Is staying in a kuti or a meditation hall, trying to focus on something, or having the idea that "I can direct sati while walking, sitting" what you call proper practice? All these things, when done with the idea that sati can arise at will, are more likely to be akusala moments rooted in wrong view. Is akusala the practice?
I thought we had got past this idea that anyone is claiming that they can "direct" sati. Things happen due to causes and conditions.

:anjali:
Mike

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