Luminious mind

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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ground
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by ground » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:12 am

There is "mind" if there is "an object of mind" otherwise there is no "mind". It appears as if all this talk about "mind" or "the nature of mind" entails its reification.

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:52 am

TMingyur wrote:There is "mind" if there is "an object of mind" otherwise there is no "mind". It appears as if all this talk about "mind" or "the nature of mind" entails its reification.

Kind regards
I think the key word here is "appears".
Let's wait until someone actually reify something and we take it from there.

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by ground » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:10 am

Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There is "mind" if there is "an object of mind" otherwise there is no "mind". It appears as if all this talk about "mind" or "the nature of mind" entails its reification.

Kind regards
I think the key word here is "appears".
Let's wait until someone actually reify something and we take it from there.
Would you say that "mind" is different from "consciousness" which is said to be the effect of ignorance and sankhara according to the 12 links of DO?

Kind regards

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:35 am

Sherab wrote:
It would seem to me that if defilements are not intrinsic to the luminous mind (the mind the meditator is trying to develop), then it is possible that the luminous mind is the same as/part of/aspect of the "consciousness without feature." Therefore the so-called development of the mind is not really development but merely named as such.
The question is: are you sure you can reasonably conflate all these "luminosities" to mean the same thing?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:38 am

TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:There is "mind" if there is "an object of mind" otherwise there is no "mind". It appears as if all this talk about "mind" or "the nature of mind" entails its reification.

Kind regards
I think the key word here is "appears".
Let's wait until someone actually reify something and we take it from there.
Would you say that "mind" is different from "consciousness" which is said to be the effect of ignorance and sankhara according to the 12 links of DO?

Kind regards
Within a mind, there are different consciousness.

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:39 am

TMingyur wrote:
Would you say that "mind" is different from "consciousness" which is said to be the effect of ignorance and sankhara according to the 12 links of DO?
But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. - SN II 94-5
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:41 am

Sherab wrote: Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
Since this is in the General Theravada discussion section, let us keep this within a Theravadin framework, tying it to texts when possible.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by ground » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:03 am

Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote: Would you say that "mind" is different from "consciousness" which is said to be the effect of ignorance and sankhara according to the 12 links of DO?

Kind regards
Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
"Within a mind ..." Now that's postulating a difference of entity and reification

Kind regards

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:05 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
It would seem to me that if defilements are not intrinsic to the luminous mind (the mind the meditator is trying to develop), then it is possible that the luminous mind is the same as/part of/aspect of the "consciousness without feature." Therefore the so-called development of the mind is not really development but merely named as such.
The question is: are you sure you can reasonably conflate all these "luminosities" to mean the same thing?
I don't know. That's one of the purpose of this discussion I guess.

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:06 am

TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote: Would you say that "mind" is different from "consciousness" which is said to be the effect of ignorance and sankhara according to the 12 links of DO?

Kind regards
Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
"Within a mind ..." Now that's postulating a difference of entity and reification

Kind regards
This is interesting. Please elaborate.

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote: Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
Since this is in the General Theravada discussion section, let us keep this within a Theravadin framework, tying it to texts when possible.
Educate me. Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by ground » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:13 am

There is no difference between "mind" and "consciousness".
Applying the term "mind": Without object there is no "mind";
applying the term "consciousness": Without "being conscious of [an object]" there is no "consciousness".
Referring to the 12 links of DO:
"Mind" or "consciousness" are effected by ignorance and sankhara.

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Re: Luminious mind

Post by ground » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:18 am

If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:06 am

TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:47 am

Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
What do you mean by "a mind?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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