the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:33 am
:focus:
Yes, this is all quite off topic.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:34 am
Yes, this is all quite off topic.
Its not off-topic. You claim the 'rebirth' you have not experienced to be true & real yet you also claim what you experience in the here & now to be not real but merely concepts. You aren't here arguing that rebirth is merely a concept. :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ryan95227
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ryan95227 »

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:22 am
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
I honestly don't get buddhists who do not believe in rebirth. If rebirth is not true what REALLY is the point of Nibanna then?
Nibbana appears rarely defined in the suttas as the "end of rebirth". Nibbana appears mostly defined as the here-&-now end of greed, hatred & delusion.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
You say life is enjoyable and just live in the present!
But you don't. Ordinary life is not enjoyable.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
No, life isn't enjoyable. Impermance isn't enjoyable.
That is why a Nibbana here & now is needed.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
We are told to practice equanimity in this world of suffering.
How is the above related to "rebirth"?
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
There's no joy in any of this. I remember one famous quote saying that "one will not allow even a millisecond on this plane of existence" It's just pure filth.
That is why a Nibbana here & now is needed.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
If rebirth = false then Suicide = ultimate freedom.
But people are not moved to commit suicide. Instead, wise people look for peace. They look for a Path.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
If rebirth = true then suffering continues to exist until our attachment/clinging stops.
No. Suffering stops when attachment/clinging stops. "Rebirth" is irrelevant.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
Otherwise the cycle of suffering (psychological and physiological pain will continue to exist)
Yes. Suffering will continue to exist in the here & now.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
To say life is "beautiful" is absolutely bonkers.
Life is not beautiful. However, whether life is beautiful or not is unrelated to rebirth.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
Have you seen so many animals suffer? Have you seen the despair people are in?
Yes. Unrelated to rebirth.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
Have you seen what aging, death, separation, and loss do to people?
Yes. Unrelated to rebirth.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
It's not worth to be in this existence unless one has attained nibanna.
Unrelated to rebirth. My impression is the word "bhava" refers to "self-existence" rather than "life-existence".
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 am
To not believe in rebirth is going completely against what buddha said imo.
That the Buddha taught about the type of "rebirth" you are imagining is questionable. Regardless, all of the above appeared unrelated to rebirth.
Yeah I still don't follow you. What type of rebirth do you believe in then? Metaphorical? Buddha still did experience "pain" as in physical pain even when he was enlightened. Complete annhilation of suffering is the goal here and not living in this existence with limitation.

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Yeah I still don't follow you. What type of rebirth do you believe in then? Metaphorical?
Thank you. Actually, the onus is on you to explain using example of the Pali language what "rebirth" is. Thanks
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Buddha still did experience "pain" as in physical pain even when he was enlightened.
Yes. When he was enlightened. This physical pain was not "suffering". There are too many suttas about this to quote.
Ryan95227 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Complete annihilation of suffering is the goal here and not living in this existence with limitation.
Non-craving and non-attachment appear to be complete annihilation of suffering & the goal, according to the suttas. Respectfully, you appear to be posting your own personal ideas rather than what is found in the suttas. If your version of Nibbana is actually true, the suttas are clear only the annihilation of craving is necessary to achieve this Nibbana. The Buddha passed away with pain. That the Buddha passed away with pain does not mean he was "reborn" again. If there actually is "rebirth" (of the "reincarnation" type), the Buddha was not "reborn" because of ending craving rather than because of ending physical pain. The Buddha never ever ended physical pain.

This say, the suttas appear to never say: "The Buddha is not reborn".
“But Master Gotama, when a mendicant’s mind is freed like this, where are they reborn?”

“Evaṃ vimuttacitto pana, bho gotama, bhikkhu kuhiṃ upapajjatī”ti?

“‘They’re reborn’ doesn’t apply, Vaccha.”
“Upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.

“Well then, are they not reborn?”
“Tena hi, bho gotama, na upapajjatī”ti?

“‘They’re not reborndoesn’t apply, Vaccha.”
Na upapajjatīti kho, vaccha, na upeti”.

https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato
With metta :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Pondera
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pondera »

DooDoot:

I just want to point out that “Nibbāna” is “the ending of the fermentations” not “the poisons”.

What fermentations? The fermentation of lust; the fermentation of becoming; and the fermentation of ignorance.

I recall in the past that you have held tightly to the idea that Nibbāna is the ending of the three poisons - and yet even you have come against difficulty finding sutta support for that.

Perhaps you’re wrong? Perhaps where you say hatred; instead you mean “becoming”?
SteRo speaks as though he is pretending to give a lecture on General Relativity in Latin to an audience who speaks Japanese.

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:37 am
DooDoot:

I just want to point out that “Nibbāna” is “the ending of the fermentations” not “the poisons”.

What fermentations? The fermentation of lust; the fermentation of becoming; and the fermentation of ignorance.

I recall in the past that you have held tightly to the idea that Nibbāna is the ending of the three poisons - and yet even you have come against difficulty finding sutta support for that.

Perhaps you’re wrong? Perhaps where you say hatred; instead you mean “becoming”?

This is from MN43:

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of limits. A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future. The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of limitless heart’s release. That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
and from AN3.66:

When liberated [by reaching the arahant Path], there comes thereafter the knowledge that it is liberated. He knows that birth is ended, that the Divine Life has been lived out, that what had to be done is done, and that there is no more of this to come. He understands thus: 'Formerly there was greed which was bad, and now there is none, which is good. Formerly there was hate, which was bad, and now there is none, which is good. Formerly there was delusion, which was bad, and now there is none, which is good.' So here and now in this very life he is parched no more [by the fever of craving's thirst], his fires of greed, hate and delusion are extinguished and cooled out; experiencing bliss, he abides [for the remainder of his last life-span] divinely pure in himself."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

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Pondera
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pondera »

I stand corrected. Thank you.
SteRo speaks as though he is pretending to give a lecture on General Relativity in Latin to an audience who speaks Japanese.

auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.55/en/sujato wrote: “What gives birth to a person?“Kiṃsu janeti purisaṃ,
What do they have that runs about?kiṃsu tassa vidhāvati;
What enters transmigration?Kiṃsu saṃsāramāpādi,
What’s their greatest fear?”kiṃsu tassa mahabbhayan”ti.

“Craving gives birth to a person.“Taṇhā janeti purisaṃ,
Their mind is what runs about.cittamassa vidhāvati;
A sentient being enters transmigration.Satto saṃsāramāpādi,
Suffering is their greatest fear.”dukkhamassa mahabbhayan”ti.
samsara- round of rebirths

purisa seem to be the main problem, what satta tries to solve with reincarnating.
person is with the thirst to know something, so it sends part of himself to reincarnate.

auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

Someone who has given up birth and death, seem still can born.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.57/en/sujato wrote: So it is for humans,Evamevaṃ manussesu,
wherever they may be bornyasmiṃ kasmiñci jātiye;
—among aristocrats, brahmins, merchants,Khattiye brāhmaṇe vesse,
workers, or outcastes and scavengers—sudde caṇḍālapukkuse.

one is born among them,Yāsu kāsuci etāsu,
tamed, true to their vows.danto jāyati subbato;
Firm in principle, accomplished in ethical conduct,Dhammaṭṭho sīlasampanno,
truthful, conscientious,saccavādī hirīmano.

they’ve given up birth and death.Pahīnajātimaraṇo,
Complete in the spiritual journey,brahmacariyassa kevalī;
with burden put down, detached,Pannabhāro visaṃyutto,
they’ve completed the task and are free of defilements.katakicco anāsavo.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Someone who has given up birth and death, seem still can born.
they're born & later they give up birth

auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:25 am
auto wrote: Someone who has given up birth and death, seem still can born.
they're born & later they give up birth
Text doesn't say about later giving up birth and death. But if not like that idea then look at this: Kāmacchanda has been given up and still born amongst humans.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.57/en/sujato wrote: What are the five factors they’ve given up?Katamāni pañcaṅgāni pahīnāni honti?
Sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt.
Kāmacchando pahīno hoti, byāpādo pahīno hoti, thinamiddhaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, uddhaccakukkuccaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, vicikicchā pahīnā hoti.
that person is born without parents. opapātika

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
auto wrote: Someone who has given up birth and death, seem still can born.
they're born & later they give up birth
Text doesn't say about later giving up birth and death.
I promise that's the meaning


you merely have to read more carefully

auto
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:01 pm
auto wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

they're born & later they give up birth
Text doesn't say about later giving up birth and death.
I promise that's the meaning


you merely have to read more carefully
they have saviññāṇaka kaya.
citta doesn't enter this body. Hence they have given up birth and death.

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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

auto wrote: Hence they have given up birth and death.
if you give up reason for being born, then yes

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