How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Post Reply
auto
Posts: 1823
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by auto »

I try to understand how this translation making sense.
Hello,
https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato wrote:The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato wrote:And what is the noble truth of suffering?Katamañcāvuso, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ?
Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.Jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsāpi dukkhā, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ; saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.
How are clinging aggregates suffering? chariot, car, computer is suffering?
https://suttacentral.net/sn26.3/en/sujato wrote: “Mendicants, the arising of eye consciousness …“Yo kho, bhikkhave, cakkhuviññāṇassa uppādo ṭhiti … pe …jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo … pe …mind consciousness …yo manoviññāṇassa uppādo ṭhiti … pe …
is the manifestation of old age and death.jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo.
Rebirth, old age, death are clinging aggregates. But feeling is condition for craving and craving is condition for clinging.

it seem clinging aggregates are not one word like 'lamp'. Aggregate there, is an object of clinging. And this activity of clinging causes(manifests) old age, illness and this process as a whole is painful, some low notch suffering.

What you guys think about this?
JohnK
Posts: 1151
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by JohnK »

Yes, I think "aggregates subject to clinging" may be a translation that makes the point more clearly.
(Seems like I have seen that translation somewhere, but don't recall at the moment.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by Nicolas »

Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59) wrote: “What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is perception permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8618
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by DooDoot »

Nicolas wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:47 pmSN 22.59
The above 2nd sermon had not been taught when Kondanna attained stream-entry after understanding the 1st sermon.
auto wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:06 pm upādānakkhandhā .... Aggregate there, is an object of clinging. And this activity of clinging...
Yes, upadana-khandha means 'object of clinging' ('aggregate of clinging').

It does not mean a potential object of clinging but it means an object of actual clinging.

Therefore, a lamp is not an upadanakhandha until there is attachment to the lamp as 'my lamp'.

It follows the word compound 'upadanakhandha' can be translated as 'aggregates subject to clinging' or 'aggregates of clinging'.
auto wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:06 pmAnd this activity of clinging causes(manifests) old age, illness and this process as a whole is painful, some low notch suffering.
Clinging all by itself is stressful. The mind must be tranquil to discern this. MN 140 says:
Construing "I am" is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow.

MN 140
But clinging also produces aging, death, sorrow, grief, lamentation, pain & despair, which is even more stressful. For example:

(i) From a distance, you see another person jump on your bicycle. This is clinging. It is suffering or stress. It causes shock or alarm, which is disturbing & stressful.

(ii) Then, very soon after, you see the same person ride away and steal your bicycle and you start to cry. This is aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, grief because your bicycle is gone, which is the death of your ownership (upadhi) of the bicycle.

SN 12.66 says aging & death arise due to 'upadhi' ('ownership', 'acquisition', 'attachment').
The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.

Acquisition has craving as its source, craving as its origin; it is born and produced from craving. When there is craving, acquisition comes to be; when there is no craving, acquisition does not come to be.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
sunnat
Posts: 560
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by sunnat »

The Exalted One's Answer to Bhadrāvudha’s Question: translation by Somdej Phra Sangharajchoa Kromalung Vajirayanawongse, President Mahamakuta Radjavidyalay Institute, (B.E. 2499)


"Thirst (craving) which is the cause of all grasping ... should be entirely got rid of, because the grasping of anything whatsoever in the world will put death in pursuit of the grasper through that which is grasped. ..."
auto
Posts: 1823
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by auto »

Nicolas wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:47 pm
Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta (SN 22.59) wrote: “What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is perception permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”
[...]
“Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”
..
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato wrote: “Mendicants, form is not-self.“Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, anattā.For if form were self, it wouldn’t lead to affliction. And you could compel form:Rūpañca hidaṃ, bhikkhave, attā abhavissa, nayidaṃ rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvatteyya, labbhetha ca rūpe:‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’‘evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī’ti.But because form is not-self, it leads to affliction. And you can’t compel form:Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ anattā, tasmā rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvattati, na ca labbhati rūpe:
‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’‘evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī’ti.
..
https://suttacentral.net/mil3.3.7/en/tw_rhysdavids wrote:‘Then how is it, Sir, that thought arises wherever sight does?’

‘Because of there being a sloping down, and because of there being a door, and because of there being a habit, and because of there being an association.’
“Kathaṃ, bhante nāgasena, yattha cakkhuviññāṇaṃ uppajjati, tattha manoviññāṇampi uppajjatī”ti? “Ninnattā ca, mahārāja, dvārattā ca ciṇṇattā ca samudācaritattā cā”ti.
ninnatta - sloping down, bent upon, aim, purpose
dvāratta - door, entrance
ciṇṇatta - habit, custom
samudācaritatta - practice
--
I think affliction refer to manoviññāṇa following cakkhuviññāṇa, not your commands. And you can't command form since form isn't affected by the thoughts.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 7399
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by Spiny Norman »

JohnK wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:17 pm Yes, I think "aggregates subject to clinging" may be a translation that makes the point more clearly.
(Seems like I have seen that translation somewhere, but don't recall at the moment.)
Yes, it's clinging which is the problem, not the aggregates per se. This is clear from the distinction made in SN22.48.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3220
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: How are clinging aggregates suffering?

Post by confusedlayman »

Dinsdale wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:52 pm
JohnK wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:17 pm Yes, I think "aggregates subject to clinging" may be a translation that makes the point more clearly.
(Seems like I have seen that translation somewhere, but don't recall at the moment.)
Yes, it's clinging which is the problem, not the aggregates per se. This is clear from the distinction made in SN22.48.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
100% correct to the point. If aggregates were problem then buddha would have suffered even after his enlightment but since craving is suffering and craving is due to ignorance.. if we get enlightened we wont suffer even if we become too old and sick...
dont think
Post Reply