Birth is ended ?

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sentinel
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Birth is ended ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:36 am

What does it mean here , Birth is ended ?


Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
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DooDoot
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:36 am
‘Khīṇā
jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī”ti.

He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
What does 'pajānātī' mean? Is it direct knowledge/experience? Or can it refer to inference? :shrug:
When breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ Dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti, dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti;
It’s when a mendicant who has sensual desire in them understands ‘I have sensual desire in me.’ When they don’t have sensual desire in them, they understand ‘I don’t have sensual desire in me.’ They understand how sensual desire arises; how, when it’s already arisen, it’s given up; and how, once it’s given up, it doesn’t arise again in the future. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu santaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ kāmacchandaṃ: ‘atthi me ajjhattaṃ kāmacchando’ti pajānāti; asantaṃ vā ajjhattaṃ kāmacchandaṃ: ‘natthi me ajjhattaṃ kāmacchando’ti pajānāti; yathā ca anuppannassa kāmacchandassa uppādo hoti, tañca pajānāti; yathā ca uppannassa kāmacchandassa pahānaṃ hoti, tañca pajānāti; yathā ca pahīnassa kāmacchandassa āyatiṃ anuppādo hoti, tañca pajānāti;
A mendicant understands old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. They understand birth …

Yato kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu evaṃ jarāmaraṇaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇasamudayaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇanirodhaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jarāmaraṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ pajānāti, evaṃ jātiṃ pajānāti … pe …
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:36 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:36 am
What does it mean here , Birth is ended ?
The gloss on khīṇā jāti in the commentary and sub-commentary to the Sāmaññaphala Sutta:
Commentary

"He understands: “Destroyed is birth … there is nothing further beyond this”

Query: What birth of his is destroyed? And how does he understand this? It is not a past birth that is destroyed, for that was already destroyed previously. It is not a future one, for there is no effort in regard to the future. And it is not the present one, because that presently exists.

Reply: It is the birth which would have arisen if the path had not been fully developed, consisting of one, four or five aggregates in one, four or five-constituent existence, respectively. By the fully developed state of the path, that birth is destroyed because it has become impossible for it to arise in the future. Having reviewed the defilements abandoned by the development of the path, he knows that in the absence of defilements, even though action occurs, it does not bring about relinking (by rebirth) in the future. Thus he understands, “Destroyed is birth.”

Sub-commentary

“It is not a past birth”: the bhikkhu’s past birth is not destroyed by the development of the path, for that was destroyed by way of ceasing prior to the development of the path. “It is not a future one”: the inquirer says this for the purpose of demonstrating his criticism by a pretext, mentioning the future in general terms, not a particular future. What is meant is that by the development of the path there can be no effort to destroy (what is) in the future, for effort occurs only in regard to what is presently existent, not in regard to what is presently nonexistent. But here (in the Buddha’s statement) it is a particular future that is intended, and effort applies to the destruction of that. Thus the commentator says: “It is the birth which would have arisen,’” etc. By this, destruction is shown (to apply) in fact to a future birth, by means of the destruction of its cause—the defilements— through the development of the path.

(from Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:28 am
sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:36 am
‘Khīṇā
jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī”ti.

He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
What does 'pajānātī' mean? Is it direct knowledge/experience? Or can it refer to inference? :shrug:
I take this as a direct experience since an arhat experience the cessation .
Another question is , what is nothing further for this world ?
Last edited by sentinel on Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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sentinel
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:36 am
sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:36 am
What does it mean here , Birth is ended ?
The gloss on khīṇā jāti in the commentary and sub-commentary to the Sāmaññaphala Sutta:
Commentary

"He understands: “Destroyed is birth … there is nothing further beyond this”

Query: What birth of his is destroyed? And how does he understand this? It is not a past birth that is destroyed, for that was already destroyed previously. It is not a future one, for there is no effort in regard to the future. And it is not the present one, because that presently exists.

Reply: It is the birth which would have arisen if the path had not been fully developed, consisting of one, four or five aggregates in one, four or five-constituent existence, respectively. By the fully developed state of the path, that birth is destroyed because it has become impossible for it to arise in the future. Having reviewed the defilements abandoned by the development of the path, he knows that in the absence of defilements, even though action occurs, it does not bring about relinking (by rebirth) in the future. Thus he understands, “Destroyed is birth.”

Sub-commentary

“It is not a past birth”: the bhikkhu’s past birth is not destroyed by the development of the path, for that was destroyed by way of ceasing prior to the development of the path. “It is not a future one”: the inquirer says this for the purpose of demonstrating his criticism by a pretext, mentioning the future in general terms, not a particular future. What is meant is that by the development of the path there can be no effort to destroy (what is) in the future, for effort occurs only in regard to what is presently existent, not in regard to what is presently nonexistent. But here (in the Buddha’s statement) it is a particular future that is intended, and effort applies to the destruction of that. Thus the commentator says: “It is the birth which would have arisen,’” etc. By this, destruction is shown (to apply) in fact to a future birth, by means of the destruction of its cause—the defilements— through the development of the path.

(from Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
Would you say cessation of the contact hence consciousness which in turn discern no conditions could cause aggregates to arise in the future ? Therefore , upon death birth ends in this very life .
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Dhammanando
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 am
Would you say cessation of the contact hence consciousness which in turn discern no conditions could cause aggregates to arise in the future ?
I wouldn't say that because I don't understand what it means. I wonder if you could phrase it in some other way?
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 am
sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 am
Would you say cessation of the contact hence consciousness which in turn discern no conditions could cause aggregates to arise in the future ?
I wouldn't say that because I don't understand what it means. I wonder if you could phrase it in some other way?
Greetings venerable ,

With the craving comes to an end , upon contact , there is no more making , therefore no condition could cause future becoming ie birth of aggregates .
Could venerable explain in your words what is the meaning of birth is ended ?
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chownah
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:43 pm

If birth is ended then there is no rebirth....and what is rebirth?
From sujato's rendition of mn9:
The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called rebirth.
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Alīno
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by Alīno » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:36 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:24 am
Another question is , what is nothing further for this world ?
Nibbana element is impenetrable, undonditioned, so Arahant's mind see that there is nothing beyond that element, that all what is conditioned can't take ground in It, can't penetrate it, seeing that, he understands: that there is no birth in it, no being and no death, that it's pure from all conditions and waverings, that its a refuge from conditioned, so by seeing the unconditioned he is desenchanted with conditioned, being desechanted he is extinguishing...
As I understand it

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Dhammanando
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:04 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm
Could venerable explain in your words what is the meaning of birth is ended ?
Even before I encountered the Dīgha Commentary my understanding of the phrase had always been identical to that of the commentator. I can't think of any simpler or better way of explaining it than it already has been:

"It is the birth which would have arisen if the path had not been fully developed."
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:20 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:04 pm
sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm
Could venerable explain in your words what is the meaning of birth is ended ?
Even before I encountered the Dīgha Commentary my understanding of the phrase had always been identical to that of the commentator. I can't think of any simpler or better way of explaining it than it already has been:

"It is the birth which would have arisen if the path had not been fully developed."
Venerable ,

Pardon for my restriction in English ,
But , what then is one , four or five aggregates in one means ?
4 or 5 constituent existence refers to what exactly ?

consisting of one, four or five aggregates in one, four or five-constituent existence, respectively.
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Nicolas
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:49 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:20 pm
But , what then is one , four or five aggregates in one means ?
4 or 5 constituent existence refers to what exactly ?
consisting of one, four or five aggregates in one, four or five-constituent existence, respectively.
Five-constituent existence = five aggregates
Four-constituent existence = five aggregates minus rupa (formless beings)
One-constituent existence = only rupa (non-percipient beings)

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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by bkmudita » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Vishuddhimagga

253. Rebirth-process becoming briefly is aggregates generated by kamma. It is of nine kinds, according as it is said: “Herein, what is rebirth-process becoming? Sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming, percipient becoming, non-percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming, one-constituent becoming, [572] four-constituent becoming, five- constituent becoming: this is called rebirth-process becoming” (Vibh 17).

254. Herein, the kind of becoming called “having sense desires” is sense-desire becoming. Similarly with the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming. It is the becoming of those possessed of perception, or there is perception here in becoming, thus it is percipient becoming. The opposite kind is non-percipient becoming. Owing to the absence of gross perception and to the presence of subtle perception there is neither perception nor non-perception in that kind of becoming, thus it is neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming. It is becoming constituted out of the materiality aggregate only, thus it is one-constituent becoming, or that kind of becoming has only one constituent, [the materiality aggregate, or dimension,] thus it is one-constituent becoming. And similarly the four-constituent [has the four mental aggregates, or dimensions,] and the five-constituent [has the material and the four mental aggregates, or dimensions].

255. Herein, sense-desire becoming is five aggregates acquired through kamma (clung to). Likewise the fine-material becoming. Immaterial becoming is four. Percipient becoming is four and five. Non-percipient becoming is one aggregate that is acquired through kamma (clung to). Neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming is four. One-constituent becoming, etc., are respectively one, four, and five aggregates as aggregates that are acquired through kamma (clung to).
This is how the exposition should be known here “as to state.”



AN 9:24 (4) Beings
“Bhikkhus, there are these nine abodes of beings. What nine?1890
(1) “There are, bhikkhus, beings that are different in body and different in perception, such as humans, some devas, and some in the lower world. This is the first abode of beings.
(2) “There are beings that are different in body but identical in perception, such as the devas of Brahmā’s company that are reborn through the first [jhāna]. This is the second abode of beings.
(3) “There are beings that are identical in body but different in perception, such as the devas of streaming radiance. This is the third abode of beings.
(4) “There are beings that are identical in body and identical in perception, such as the devas of refulgent glory. This is the fourth abode of beings.
(5) “There are beings that are non-percipient, without experience, such as the devas that are non-percipient. This is the fifth abode of beings.
(6) “There are beings that, with the complete surmounting of perceptions of forms, with the passing away of perceptions of sensory impingement, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, [perceiving] ‘space is infinite,’ belong to the base of the infinity of space. This is the sixth abode of beings.
(7) “There are beings that, by completely surmounting the base of the infinity of space, [perceiving] ‘consciousness is infinite,’ belong to the base of the infinity of consciousness. This is the seventh abode of beings.
(8) “There are beings that, by completely surmounting the base of the infinity of consciousness, [perceiving] ‘there is nothing,’ belong to the base of nothingness. This is the eighth abode of beings.
(9) “There are beings that, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, belong to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. This is the ninth abode of beings.
“These are the nine abodes of beings.” [402]


AN 7:44 (1) Stations
“Bhikkhus, there are these seven stations for consciousness.1502 What seven?
(1) “There are, bhikkhus, beings that are different in body and different in perception, such as humans, some devas, and some in the lower world. This is the first station for consciousness.1503 [40]
(2) “There are beings that are different in body but identical in perception, such as the devas of Brahmā’s company that are reborn through the first [jhāna]. This is the second station for consciousness.1504
(3) “There are beings that are identical in body but different in perception, such as the devas of streaming radiance. This is the third station for consciousness.1505
(4) “There are beings that are identical in body and identical in perception, such as the devas of refulgent glory. This is the fourth station for consciousness.1506
(5) “There are beings that, with the complete surmounting of perceptions of forms, with the passing away of perceptions of sensory impingement, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, [perceiving] ‘space is infinite,’ belong to the base of the infinity of space. This is the fifth station for consciousness.
(6) “There are beings that, by completely surmounting the base of the infinity of space, [perceiving] ‘consciousness is infinite,’ belong to the base of the infinity of consciousness. This is the sixth station for consciousness.
(7) “There are beings that, by completely surmounting the base of the infinity of consciousness, [perceiving] ‘there is nothing,’ belong to the base of nothingness. This is the seventh station for consciousness.
“These, bhikkhus, are the seven stations for consciousness.”1507
All Our Practice Efforts, Directed to the Cessation of the Taints. - vimutta.ca

sunnat
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Re: Birth is ended ?

Post by sunnat » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:27 pm

The continually repeating experience of being born of kamma is over. The last re-birth has been experienced. There is no more doing to do. Finally doing nothing, the end of the path is reached.

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