If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:09 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:34 am
what good is “believing” in kamma and rebirth

Only right view results in good rebirth.

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No_Mind
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by No_Mind » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:33 pm
This thread is not about the re-birth.
The question is is it necessary to believe in Kamma and re-birth to attain enlightenment.
How do you practice if there is no Kamma and re-birth?
I hesitated a long while before answering ..

I have had lot of doubts .. about rebirth, kamma, anatta .. lot of questions .. I had gotten pretty worked up about it few years back and left Buddhism for a month ..

But .. when I read the suttas I find someone of immense wisdom speaking to us .. and I am on the whole sure that man is not selling snake oil

Hence I take his words as truth .. call it faith .. I have faith in what he asked us to do (follow Noble 8FP) .. I have no proof but I am willing to trust him because he sounds so wise ..
Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "These five things, householder, are welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world. Which five?

"Long life is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Beauty is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Happiness is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Status is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Rebirth in heaven is welcome, agreeable, pleasant, & hard to obtain in the world.

"Now, I tell you, these five things are not to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes. If they were to be obtained by reason of prayers or wishes, who here would lack them?

Ittha Sutta
This is so wise .. I have not been able to find anyone else who could dismiss so much in so few words .. what such a man told us cannot be false .. he did not ask us to believe in next life but he asked us to follow the Noble 8FP .. if you believe he is not a fake messiah follow the 8FP .. it can only lead to good things.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

Upeksha
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:16 am

Isn't there an important distinction to be made between insight and belief/faith?

Right view is predicated on direct insight. That's what we're all aiming for, and it has to be seen as a process. And the more honest one is in this (difficult) process, the more likely one is to be successful in my book.

So I think it is perfectly acceptable for Buddhists to be uncertain or agnostic about rebirth ~ it is nothing more than an honest expression of where they are at. I don't think it ought to be an article of faith - because belief in these things is not tantamount to actually gaining insight into them.

But on the flip side, being uncertain or agnostic also implies an openness. i.e. to the possibility that these things may be true/real.

pegembara
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by pegembara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:58 am

If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

No you shouldn't. You should instead care about the doctrine of anatta(no self or not self). For if "what" is reborn is merely a conglomerate of the 5 aggregates which are not self, you wouldn't care.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

binocular
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:21 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:46 pm
Agree.
What I am saying is, isn't that enough to know how the Kamma ripening and the Dependent Origination in this life itself.
Have you read Ven. Thanissaro's The Truth of Rebirth And Why it Matters for Buddhist Practice?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:23 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:33 pm
:focus:
This thread is not about the re-birth.
The question is is it necessary to believe in Kamma and re-birth to attain enlightenment.
How do you practice if there is no Kamma and re-birth?
If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:27 am

Thank you, Binocular.
It is a good article.
What it failed to deliver is Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth prevailed in his time.
He did not tech re-birth but taught birth.
What I think is, we still get hold to the old Hindu belief in re-birth as Buddhist.
Our aim as Buddhist should be to be happy in this life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am

If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:30 am
If there is no kamma and reberth the validity of paticca samuppada cannot be realised. The whole of buddhist practise rests on paticca samuppada.
As my previous post,-Buddha gave a different meaning to re-birth and Kamma.
Many of Buddhist still interpret those two terms based on old Hindu philosophy.
We should use the DO based on one life model because there is no person behind our existence.
Dependant origination continues through samsara(in sensual worlds or kama loka) until the reach higher forms to those of nirvana. Physical death in this birth is only a change of phase in samsara. Hence kamma is a force which continues through samsara but not not a force which changes from this life to next life. Yet cuti citta will make certain changes with the realms ( loka) one goes through samsara.

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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:19 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:26 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:22 am
Many can't face the fact of no rebirth.
Rebirth is a difficult, not easy teaching.
To me the idea of complete extinction at death is more difficult than the idea of some kind of continuation or "rebirth".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:22 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 am
You're just atheists who meditate for stress relief, not Buddhists.
Some translate dukkha as "stress", so "stress relief" seems like a valid goal for a Buddhist. As for "atheism", there is no requirement to believe in God for a Buddhist. And if you do believe in God, then Hinduism might be a more suitable option.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:50 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:09 am
thepea wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:34 am
what good is “believing” in kamma and rebirth

Only right view results in good rebirth.
What does that mean, can you explain the relation between right view and the role belief plays in this.
I’m defining belief as in faith.
How does faith in kamma and rebirth liberate one from suffering? It seems like the cars gassed up ready to go but hasn’t left the driveway yet.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:19 pm

Familiarity with the teaching leads to faith.

Faith leads to heaven.

thepea
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by thepea » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:38 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:19 pm
Familiarity with the teaching leads to faith.

Faith leads to heaven.
Is heaven the goal.

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cappuccino
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Re: If I am reborn it is not me. So why I care about the rebirth?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm

Atheists will be in hell or animal womb. Because they reject karma and rebirth.

So heaven is the goal in terms of view.

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