I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:48 pm

I'd say that "betrayal" is when someone keeps his life in robes for the sake of material gain, praise, social benefits, etc.
Agree. Even if you disrobe you still can live like an average monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:53 pm

Considering the fact that the Nibbana is a far fetch theory for me, what I admire about monks is they protect the Dhamma for future generation. Without their effort, we will not have the Buddhism available to us in this fashion.
Even if you become a monk for one day, I think it is a great benefit for yourself and others.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:05 pm

Greetings binocular,
Nevertheless, disrobing is a form of betrayal that can cause a crisis of faith for lay people who have relied on that monk to teach them the Dhamma
Maybe if their refuge is a charismatic individual, rather than the Triple Gem. If people are so superficial, then I question what they're actually learning anyway...

One need not be ordained in order to actualize the Buddha's teachings, nor to point others in their direction, or share their understandings of them.

I for one really appreciated James' comments because they touch on some of issues that I pre-empted would exist if I myself happened to ordain. It gives me more confidence I made the right decision for me and does nothing whatsoever to diminish my faith. If anything, the forthright honesty gives me confidence in the authenticity that underlined his decisions, a quality that I see as integral both to pursuing the Dhamma, and to a meaningful, worthwhile life.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

pyluyten
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by pyluyten » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:40 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:33 pm
I used to love meditating, but now that it is my job I don't like it so much.
hello, i wish you will find back this pleasure.
actually i am very confident you will discover the training is till here, like someone who does not forget how to ride a bike.
simply you will ride the bike to another place.
if people doing retreats have this, why a monk would not?

i bet you will post again, maybe within a week, a month or a year, so i hope to read this

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:47 pm

pyluyten wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:40 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:33 pm
I used to love meditating, but now that it is my job I don't like it so much.
if people doing retreats have this, why a monk would not?

For some time since coming to the monastery I would compare my meditation here to when i was in lay life, and I would see that my meditation in lay life seemed much better, much more productive, calm, and peaceful.

It's only just now, after 3 years, that I am starting to get back to that place. It can take years, literally, to adjust to such a different lifestyle, and I've found that so much of that adjustment meant the work was more in the range of satipatthana, being mindful of whats going on in your mind and body, rather then the peace of samatha.

You have lived X amount of years being conditioned in a certain way, then you are dunked into the ocean without a life preserver and have to swim, in a new way of life, a new mindset, it's not easy.

It's also the thing where a monastery for a lay person is a refuge from the world, you come here for a week to get away from your life, but for us the monastery IS our life, and it's filled with all the greed, hatred, and delusion you'll find out on the outside.

I also look forward to James's response to this.
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Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://bhikkhujayasara.wordpress.com/

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:29 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm
Nevertheless, disrobing is a form of betrayal that can cause a crisis of faith for lay people who have relied on that monk to teach them the Dhamma.

I think (novice) monks should live in isolation and not teach lays or publicy present themselves as representatives of the Dhamma until they are sure they want to be monks for the rest of their lives.
That's just typical out of touch idealism.

In SE Asia temporary ordination is common. In the lineage that James ordained in it's common for a candidate to make a 5 year commitment, James exceeded that and exceeded what most Thai monks would do as ordinations would more typically range from 2 days to 3 months. It's not a betrayal it's a noble effort.

While it can be disappointing when senior teachers disrobe anyone who is putting their faith in a person (whether a monk, or teacher or not) obviously doesn't have much faith in the dhamma.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

SarathW
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:41 pm

I used to love meditating, but now that it is my job I don't like it so much.
This is what happens when you have not experienced the pleasure of not of the flesh.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Zom
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Zom » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:50 pm

This is what happens when you have not experienced the pleasure of not of the flesh.
Rare are those who experienced a true (not imaginary) one. And even they did, rare are those who can keep it up.
Last edited by Zom on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:52 pm

Bhante Jayasara,
What do monks do in their spare time?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm
I think (novice) monks should live in isolation and not teach lays or publicy present themselves as representatives of the Dhamma...
I agree here.
binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm
. And "Bhante Lucky"? What was up with that?
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante because in the suttas the primary person called Bhante (Lord) is the Buddha.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
life itself has taught me that anytime I thought I had everything figured out, it laughed and flipped everything around on me.
You were the 1st social-media novice I ever saw although I see others like you now, which is disconcerting in respect to your preceptors. I personally find it bizzare to see Westerners showing their novicing & ordaining on social media. It reminds me of the Christian & Islamic videos about people converting to their religions.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
Regardless if you are a monastic or a lay person, there is still the noble eightfold path...

Sounds like this is proselytizing the same proselytizing that captured you. The noble eightfold path is something free from sensuality. I would imagine a Western person would already be dispassionate towards sensuality before ordaining.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
I hold nothing against anyone who decides to disrobe...
Either do I however I have my concerns about those senior monks like Ajahn Brahm & Sujato recruiting unsuitable applicants with their shiny advertising of jhanas & brahma realms. It was ethically disconcerting for me to see Ajahn Jag promoting/advertising the urgency in raising $2.5M to build a new monastery and then hear of him disrobing. I sort of liked/respected Ajahn Jag and, although I do not know the reasons for his disrobing, this caused a strong loss of faith in me towards this group/sect, which I already have weak faith towards. Similarly, they created lots of division with the ordaining of one of Ajahn Sumedho's nuns and this bhikkhuni disrobed this year. They have bhikkhunis talking about asexual Vinaya, even though Vinaya is often about avoiding worldly situations that are gender specific. I might sound like an idealist but I think quality is more important than quantity.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:27 am, edited 11 times in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:48 am

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante.
Technically bhante is a term of second-person address akin to "sir", so should only be used when actually speaking to a bhikkhu, not about one.

Thus, the name "Bhante [such-and-such]" doesn't really make much sense at the best of times. Better in names to use terms like "Bhikkhu", or if the monk has been ordained long enough to warrant it, "Thera".

Metta,
Paul.. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Thisperson
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:48 am
Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante.
Technically bhante is a term of address akin to "sir", so should only be used when actually speaking to a bhikkhu, not about one.

Thus, the name "Bhante [such-and-such]" doesn't really make much sense at the best of times. Better in names to use terms like "Bhikkhu", or if the monk has been ordained long enough to warrant it, "Thera".

Metta,
Paul.. :)

I suppose we could still use it if talking about monks who were originally from the UK though..

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DooDoot
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:06 am

Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
There is gratification in lay life that you enumerate in your post with many examples - sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction
Which sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction? Thanks
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
but then there is the danger as well: old age, sickness, death, the impermanence of all acquisitions, pleasures and joys, the inevitable physical and mental pain; and then there is the escape.
Are there any suttas that support this above point of view? I thought the suttas said craving & clinging were the "dangers"? Thanks
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

MN 130
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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Thisperson
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:06 am
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
There is gratification in lay life that you enumerate in your post with many examples - sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction
Which sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction? Thanks
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
but then there is the danger as well: old age, sickness, death, the impermanence of all acquisitions, pleasures and joys, the inevitable physical and mental pain; and then there is the escape.
Are there any suttas that support this above point of view? I thought the suttas said craving & attachment were the "dangers"? Thanks
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

MN 130
This sutta speaks of the gratification, danger, and escape of sensual pleasures, as well as other things.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... ndha-sutta

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DooDoot
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 am

Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 am
This sutta speaks of the gratification, danger, and escape of sensual pleasures, as well as other things.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... ndha-sutta
OK. Thanks.
And what, bhikkhus, is the escape...? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for.... This is the escape...
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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