Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:01 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:38 pm
They self-identify as Buddhists.
Does that make them Buddhists?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

perkele
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:07 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:42 pm
I don't think the posts are viewed as a violation of TOS, so reporting them will not prevent some Buddhists here from disparaging other faiths.
/.../
Maybe if enough members start reporting posts which disparage other faiths, it will make a difference?
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:50 pm
I encourage Members to speak out.
I am sure the moderators are already as alert and aware of this sensitive topic as possible.

While I do not agree with a wholesale disparagement of the islamic faith as evil and characterization of its adherents as condoning rape and enslavement and murder and torture of infidels and wishing for them to suffer for all eternity etc. etc. (although the numerous islamic terror organizations and apparently relatively widespread sympathy for them among muslims here and there throughout the world certainly don't help...) and believe that probably some of the comments in the pertinent threads are misinformed and slanderous to various degrees, I do think there is some merit to the debate and the expression of opinions, facts and disagreements.

There seems to be enough balance between the factions of Islam bashers and Islam apoligists for my tastes, which is also an opportunity to learn a lot.

And although I think that disparaging other faiths in the most cases is unseemly and not usually in line with what the Buddha would have recommended (although the Buddha himself disparaged the Jain doctrine, among others, on several occasions [but... quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi]), or so I assume, I don't think it should be forbidden at all.

I am reminded of this jataka: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j3/j3057.htm

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:12 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:35 pm
No, it is not. This has no place in mainstream Islam and is routinely denounced as heretical.
Mainstream schmainstream.
If we want to be really precise, there is no Islam (and no Christianity, no Buddhism, no etc., no religion altogether), except in encyclopedias and dictionaries that operate on the assumption that the world is conveniently, neatly organized in clearcut categories.
Are there Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. who rationalize greed, bigotry, hatred, etc. by claiming a religious justification that just is not there? We can see it in DW for sure.
Why should mainstream Islam be seen as more authoritative than the Islam of the Talibans? Because some scholars that one likes say so? Because a statistical majority says so?

As long as there is no centralized authority in Islam that would once and for all, for everyone, whether Muslim or not, define Islamic doctrine, this long the quest for what is and isn't Islamic doctrine is moot. And the same goes for most other religions.

The OP would do better to call people to please stop acting on greed, anger, and delusion.
:guns:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

perkele
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:18 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:01 pm
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:38 pm
They self-identify as Buddhists.
Does that make them Buddhists?
In my private language: "being a buddhist" = "self-identifying as buddhist and believing in the Buddha as a spiritual authority showing an actual path to salvation (although not necessarily understanding his teachings and following that path perfectly)".

Not sure, how many Burmese are actually buddhist in this "faithful but imperfect" sense, but I believe probably at least half of them. And certainly almost all of those in robes.

User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm

perkele wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:07 pm
There seems to be enough balance between the factions of Islam bashers and Islam apoligists for my tastes, which is also an opportunity to learn a lot.
Yes, there also is a balance between people who look at facts and people who denounce accurate reporting as "fake news." Balance is not the point when one side is disproportionately unreasonable and unjust. An important issue here is the perception of Buddhism created when we choose to disparage other faiths, call Muhammed a rapist, suggest that Muhammed be urinated upon, etc.
perkele wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:07 pm
And although I think that disparaging other faiths in the most cases is unseemly and not usually in line with what the Buddha would have recommended (although the Buddha himself disparaged the Jain doctrine, among others, on several occasions [but... quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi]), or so I assume, I don't think it should be forbidden at all.
We do not have the perceptive capacity of the Buddha to know when to speak in such a way. This is not a black-and-white issue between forbidding all discussion of other faiths versus allowing wholesale disparagement of any kind. A reasonable line could be drawn such that comments which show open contempt for other traditions are a violation of TOS. This is within the authority of the operators of the Forum, and would be in keeping with the goals of discussing the Dhamma. If people want to bash other faiths, there are other avenues available.

Of course I defer to those who provide this forum and manage it. Members don't get to decide how things are run, but we can have our say to the extent permitted.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11916
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:01 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:12 pm
If we want to be really precise, there is no Islam (and no Christianity, no Buddhism, no etc., no religion altogether), except in encyclopedias and dictionaries that operate on the assumption that the world is conveniently, neatly organized in clearcut categories.
Correct, the best definition we have are those generally agreed upon by scholars who write the encyclopedia and text book articles on World Religions. And then the reality is there are hundreds, almost thousands of different versions within each; some who take the teachings literally, some as allegories and varying forms of degrees in between. The vast majority of Buddhists and Muslims are not violent.

What makes a real Buddhist? What makes a real Muslim? There are numerous degrees of religiosity along the spectrum and various definitions; which is ultimately up to the members of each religion to hash it out.

perkele
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:09 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm
This is not a black-and-white issue between forbidding all discussion of other faiths versus allowing wholesale disparagement of any kind. A reasonable line could be drawn such that comments which show open contempt for other traditions are a violation of TOS.
While in theory this sounds plausible, I think in practice it would be far too difficult for moderators to draw that line again and again on what is allowable and what not, and do a good and fair job at it. Predictable unfairness in the midst of heated and contentious disagreements as these topics tend to stir up would lead to predictable grievances among disputants (as has quite [...far more than now I think] often been the case here a bit further in the past; I think moderators like Ben and tiltbillings might already have shut down threads like the recent one about Mohammed long ago, and quite rightly so perhaps, but many would have expressed their anger at being silenced in new topics and continued their feuds there and so on and on...).
So in my estimation it would actually have to be a black-or-white issue: Forbid discussing such topics at all, or be rather lenient and let people have heated debates that can be ugly at times.
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm
This is within the authority of the operators of the Forum, and would be in keeping with the goals of discussing the Dhamma. If people want to bash other faiths, there are other avenues available.
You have a point here with keeping the forum focussed on discussing the Dhamma. Actually I would not have strong objections against excluding the "Connections to other paths" (and maybe also the "Politics and current events") subforums completely. I also think that a Dhamma forum is not or should not be the place to discuss in depth (and factual or not, critical or not) the doctrines of other religions. Topics like this contentious one seem really a bit out of place here in my estimation.
L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm
Of course I defer to those who provide this forum and manage it. Members don't get to decide how things are run, but we can have our say to the extent permitted.
That seems quite right. :smile:

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11916
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:46 pm

I think discussion of other religions is okay and even some comparative analysis, but it should be done civilly. Some posts have crossed the line, with use of rhetoric over logic. Certainly name calling and advocating urinating on a religious figure is inappropriate.

All philosophies and religions should be allowed to examined and critiqued, but it should be done with a focus on the issues, the doctrines and with an understanding of the history and the societal-cultural factors.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3375
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:03 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:46 pm
I think discussion of other religions is okay and even some comparative analysis, but it should be done civilly. Some posts have crossed the line, with use of rhetoric over logic. Certainly name calling and advocating urinating on a religious figure is inappropriate.
Hi David

Read the first paragraph in the first post of this thread

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30263


Why you choose to allow this on a "Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravāda" is beyond me. I guess it is about priorities.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11916
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:07 pm

Hi Mr Man,

I don't read all the threads and posts here and I tend to ignore those type of threads, but as I said certainly some posts have crossed the line. I have only skimmed that thread and just in the past day, so the team and I will need to figure out what to do with the posts that crossed the line of appropriate speech.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11916
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:21 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:03 pm
Read the first paragraph in the first post of this thread
.....
I removed that thread (Muhammad - worthy of respect) from view for now, maybe permanently. Most of the team is away right now, so I went ahead and removed it and later it might get cleaned up and return or it just might stay away permanently.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3375
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Thank you David. You might want to have a look at this thread as well (even though it is very old).

viewtopic.php?t=4713

perkele
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:33 pm

I don't think it is generally a good idea to delete threads or make them invisible for eternity in most cases.
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:27 pm
Thank you David. You might want to have a look at this thread as well (even though it is very old).

viewtopic.php?t=4713
There was discussion, disparagement, disagreement and so on in that thread... And it was locked in the end.
Do you believe this dark chapter from the past should be hidden away? If so, why?
I think reading such old discussions, no matter what the outcome, can be informative and possibly helpful at times.

Of course, I am not the boss here. That's just my opinion.

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 3375
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 pm

perkele wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:33 pm
I don't think it is generally a good idea to delete threads or make them invisible for eternity in most cases.
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:27 pm
Thank you David. You might want to have a look at this thread as well (even though it is very old).

viewtopic.php?t=4713
There was discussion, disparagement, disagreement and so on in that thread... And it was locked in the end.
Do you believe this dark chapter from the past should be hidden away? If so, why?
I think reading such old discussions, no matter what the outcome, can be informative and possibly helpful at times.

Of course, I am not the boss here. That's just my opinion.
Hi perkele
I think specifically the first post from Modus.Ponens (& conected posts) are not appropriate, offensive and disrespectful and should have been removed at the time and should be removed now.

perkele
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:12 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:46 pm
Hi perkele
I think specifically the first post from Modus.Ponens (& conected posts) are not appropriate, offensive and disrespectful and should have been removed at the time and should be removed now.
I don't see what sense that would make. That the mentioned post was inappropriate, offensive and disrespectful has been well pointed out in the thread.
People can say offensive and inappropriate things, and they can be called out for it, and discussions evolve in ways good, bad or ugly, and when moderators find it too hard to deal with them anymore they may shut them down. That's how it seems to work. I don't think it's a bad thing to be able to see still in hindsight what has happened. Why should this or that particular post from the past be cut out of history, especially when it has been answered to, and in this case, duly rebuked?
I don't see the advantage of cleaning up the traces of what others have said far back in the past.

But anyway, that is not my job, and I'm glad about it.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests