Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

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Circle5
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Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:55 am

It looks as if Buddha noticed this problem too with postmodernist of his time, called Ajnana. A modern complain about postmodernism, aside from being self-refuting and useless, is being nonsensical. A problem also exposed by the famous Sokal Affair.

It appears that Buddhism also considers this philosophy "a product of sheer stupidity":
Herein a certain recluse or brahmin is dull, stupid. And by reason of his dullness and stupidity, when questioned on this or that matter, he resorts to verbal jugglery or eel-wriggling: "If you ask me whether there is a next world, then if it were to occur to me (iti ce me assa) that there is a next world, I would pronounce that there is a next world. Yet, I do not say so, I do not say thus, I do not say otherwise, I do not say no, I deny the denials.
A similar account is given in Samaññaphala Sutta. In both the accounts, the stupidity of this school is emphasised, highlighting the antipathy that the Buddhists felt about this school. In Brahmajala Sutta, out of sixty-two philosophical schools mentioned, this school is singled out as being "a product of sheer stupidity" whereas in Samaññaphala Sutta Ajatasattu singles out Sanjaya as "the most foolish and stupid."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aj%C3%B1a ... st_account
Maybe this is why people make so much fun of postmodernism today in modern times too. And we see that Jains refuted them in the same way, by showing that they are self refuting, as shown in this meme:
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chownah
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by chownah » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:35 am

Fake postmodernist: There is no truth.
Me: Is that true?
Fake postmodernist: I don't know what you mean by "true".
Me: You vile eel wriggler! You can absolutely not be wanting to think about what truth means...you are just avoiding my most valid and revealing criticisms.
Fake postmodernist: Whatever.

chownah

Circle5
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:40 am

You mean that Heidegger, Husserl, Derrida, etc. were all "fake postmodernist" ? I am afraid you are a fake postmodernist at the table.

chownah
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by chownah » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:12 am

Circle5 wrote:You mean that Heidegger, Husserl, Derrida, etc. were all "fake postmodernist" ? I am afraid you are a fake postmodernist at the table.
No, I do not mean that.
There is no meaning.
Don't be afraid.
chownah

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:36 am

The main question: Is it useful?

I would say no, it is not.

I don't see any Post-Modernist Philosopher Arahants around. In fact, what I see is that anyone seriously interested in Post-Modernist Philosophy has already disappeared, or is in danger of disappearing, up their own arsehole.

Post-Modern Philosophy is a classic case of ignorance, defined as views not made with reference to the Four Noble Truths.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Circle5
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:24 pm

On top of that, Buddha also called them "a philosophy of eer-wrigglers" and it was considered one of the worst kinds of wrong view because it leads to disregard for morality. Other philosophies may be wrong, but few advocate for non-importance of morality.

Therefore, according to Buddhism, it's not only a wrong philosophy "product of sheer stupidity" but also a very detrimental wrong view. And yes, we have a meme explaining this too:
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binocular
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by binocular » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 am

Postmodernism is probably one of the most misunderstood and under-appreciated approaches.
In summary, postmodernism summarized the problems and the doubts or critical points that have appeared in philosophy and science over the centuries. It showed that the certainties of old were not certainties at all.

If anything, postmodernism, with its questioning of the nature of human experience, is a door to Buddhism par excellence. Many people walk past that door.

Postmodernism is inaccessible to those who think that this
Image
is an image based on facts, instead of based on a theory.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Circle5
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:02 pm

binocular wrote: If anything, postmodernism, with its questioning of the nature of human experience, is a door to Buddhism par excellence. Many people walk past that door.
On the contrary, it has brought nothing but stupidity to Buddhism. B. Sujato considers postmodernism is responsible for setting early buddhist texts study back by a generation. He has even wrote a book against the idea that "we can never know anything for sure, therefore study of early buddhist texts is useless", showing you can actually know a lot about early buddhist text by using the scientific method: http://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015 ... ticity.pdf

Postmodernism, as Buddha has noticed too, is "a product of sheer stupidity". It questions everything and does so in a stupid manner, not an intelligent one. It never argues based on scientific or logical arguments, it just says "we can never know anything for sure about early buddhist texts" and presents no arguments. It just makes this claim and that's it, that's the end of it. It's such a simple and stupid tactic that the smoking industry had used it for a long time. They said "we have no idea if smoking is bad for your health, there is just not enough evidence" and no matter how much evidence one might bring, the postmodernist will just say "nope, it's not enough, I'm not convinced, I will never be convinced because the scientific method and logic itself is flawed so all evidence is useless, the whole debate is useless".

This practice has set study of early buddhist texts back a generation. And it is such a stupid, useless position to take. As many others have complained, postmodernism brings nothing to the conversation. "You say smoking is bad for health and provide this ton of evidence ? Well, I don't believe you, I'll never believe you". It's doesn't try to argue you based on arguments, it's like a little kid saying "nope, I don't believe you, I'll never believe you no matter what evidence you bring". And it uses this childish "I don't believe you, I don't believe anything" type of thinking on anything except on the postmodernist beliefs themselves.

It is completely anti-science and anti-intellectual. It's a return to the stone age in terms of intellectualism. That's why postmodernist philosophers have been sometimes called IYIs (intellectual yet idiot) or "82 IQ philosophers". Even in the stone age people tried to have some sense, even though their use of logic was not the best. But with postmodernism, there is no logic, it's stupidity in its purest form.

This is why out of 62 schools of philosophy, postmodernism was singled out by the Buddha as being "a product of sheer stupidity".


"I don't believe this, no matter how much evidence you might present me cause all that evidence is flawed because logic is flawed to begin with. But..... I do believe all these postmodernist ideas. Why do I believe in them ? Well, it never occurred to us this question because, as Buddha said, we're not the brightest of the 62 schools of philosophy around."

PS: If one really wants to question science, he should do so in a smart way, not like an idiot.
Last edited by Circle5 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:12 pm

binocular wrote: In summary, postmodernism summarized the problems and the doubts or critical points that have appeared in philosophy and science over the centuries.
Surely you are talking about exclusively western and greek philosophy here, not the Dhamma. As i understand "they" analyzed some theories that were incomperhensive or wrong and proclaimed that therefore everything else is wrong by extension. Nowadays i don't think postmodernists are into objectively analyzing anything for the most part.

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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:38 pm

It's amusing how even Lenin called them "the useful idiots". Even if their use of rationality was mostly flawed, communist countries were the biggest lovers rationalism in the world. Education was focused entirely on scientific fields while art, philosophy or other such fields were considered useless. Communist could not be more against such ridiculous ideas held by postmodernist. Yet, postmodernist in the US somehow ended up being marxist and supporting the USSR. This is because those who initially made popular this school of philosophy were rebel marxist, disappointed that communist could not care less about them. They started the Frankfurt school and then moved to US after the war.

That is why Lenin called them "the useful idiots". They were idiots for him just like they were for the Buddha, but at least they were useful.

This is how normal people see this school of philosophy. Even Buddha said it is "a product of sheer stupidity". Not all ideas in this world are equal in terms of level of intelligence. Some ideas might be intelligent while others might be simply "a product of sheer stupidity".

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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:49 pm

Circle5 wrote:Even Buddha said it is "a product of sheer stupidity".
It is not good to attribute quotes to the Buddha. I see what you mean but it seems weird to say it like that.

Circle5
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:08 pm

It is not good to attribute quotes to the Buddha. I see what you mean but it seems weird to say it like that.
It depends in what country one lives. Some countries are pretty direct in their way of speaking while others are not direct at all. From what we see in the suttas, ancient Indian society was a pretty direct society.

Buddha didn't say this in order to bash them, he simply said it as a fact. If a philosophy was a product of strong clinging to a self, that's what he would say about it. If a philosophy was a product of sheer stupidity, that's what he would say about it. It's an objective evaluation of the situation and nothing more. Like a doctor would name the cause of a disease.

It's not bashing because he never bashed any other philosophy. If Buddha would say this about 10 schools of philosophy then it might be considered bashing. But out of the 62 schools of philosophy, postmodernism is the only one considered to be "a product of sheer stupidity". And I would say he was very gentle in his evaluation of the situation. If we look at the 90s "science wars" or modern criticism of this philosophy, we see that people are much more aggressive in ridiculing it.

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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by binocular » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:18 pm

R1111 wrote:Surely you are talking about exclusively western and greek philosophy here, not the Dhamma. As i understand "they" analyzed some theories that were incomperhensive or wrong and proclaimed that therefore everything else is wrong by extension.
I wouldn't describe it that way. Postmodernism criticizes the idealistic faith in science that had turned into scientism.
Some people who claim to be advocates for science are actually advocates for scientism; and they don't understand the scientific method. Those people have the most problems with postmodernism, because it's the scientism that postmodernism attacks most fiercely. In my understanding, at least.
Nowadays i don't think postmodernists are into objectively analyzing anything for the most part.
To be fair, I don't recall any postmodernist ever promising solutions to the problems they point out.
(This is my grudge against the postmodernists -- pointing out problems but not offering any solutions to them.)
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Circle5
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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:01 pm

binocular wrote: I wouldn't describe it that way. Postmodernism criticizes the idealistic faith in science that had turned into scientism.
Some people who claim to be advocates for science are actually advocates for scientism; and they don't understand the scientific method. Those people have the most problems with postmodernism, because it's the scientism that postmodernism attacks most fiercely. In my understanding, at least.
What they are trying to criticize is the materialist philosophy, witch claims all kinds of assumptions made by them are based on science and logic, when it fact they are mere assumptions. And criticizing materialism can be done in a very smart and effective way, it can easily be refuted. Or, it can be done in a totally idiotic way by trying to say logic and scientific method are wrong and therefore materialism witch is an extreme built on a piece of truth that is studied by science is wrong too.

That's just not the way to do it. The way to do it is by showing how it's an extreme based on a piece of truth. It starts from the truth that matter/the form aggregate has an important role to play in how this world works and then goes into an extreme of materialism reductionism and claims "everything comes from matter, including consciousness, including perception, including volition, including feeling" (the other 4 aggregates) They you go to conclusions such as "you dissapear after death because counsciousness and everything else depend on matter".

The way to refute it is by pointing out it is based on a flawed assumption that consciousness originates from matter, despite "the hard problem of consciousness" has never been solved. You can not know what happens to consciousness after death if you have no idea where consciousness originated from. It's impossible to know weather it will disappear or re-appear again just like it did the first time, through the same mechanism that it did the first time, if you officially do not know where it originated from. And the other way to refute it is by recent scientific discoveries that contradict materialism implications. For example neuroplasticity, the placebo effect, problems in quantum physics etc. These are things that refute materialism implications, making materialism invalid even if we ignore the hard problem of consciousness and claim "we will solve it in the future but our theory is still right in the meantime".

Postmodernism was a primitive reaction to the rise of materialism world view due to advancements in science. That's why it first started with christian philosophers who could not longer debate on rules based on logic, so they decided to attack logic itself. Primitive, idiotic and self-refuting reactions only reinforce materialist belief that they are correct.

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Re: Is postmodernism "a product of sheer stupidity" according to Buddhism ?

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:20 pm

For everyone's 'edification', a few postmodern gems:
Gilles Deleuze wrote:The shadow escapes from the body like an animal we had been sheltering.
Gilles Deleuze wrote:Shit on your whole mortifying, imaginary, and symbolic theater!
Jacques Derrida wrote:To pretend, I actually do the thing: I have therefore only pretended to pretend.
Jacques Derrida wrote:If this work seems so threatening, this is because it isn't simply eccentric or strange, but competent, rigorously argued, and carrying conviction.
Jacques Derrida wrote:I do not believe in pure idioms. I think there is naturally a desire, for whoever speaks or writes, to sign in an idiomatic, irreplaceable manner.

As you can see, absolute paragons of clarity and useful thought. I particularly like the self-satisfied and deliberate obfuscation put in place to disguise the complete lack of content.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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