Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

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manas
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by manas » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:20 am

purple planet wrote:
That is why he was so popular with laypeople, but not with monks.
I think this important to whoever reads this story and gets doubts - that he was a bit controversial even before leaving
The teachers I most respect are also regarded as 'a bit controversial'. Sometimes I wonder who is there, who is totally free from any controversy? (Other than the Buddha himself, that is!)

metta
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Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

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purple planet
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by purple planet » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:40 am

Ohh what i wanted to write but decided to leave it - that even the buddha had lots of critics and haters

its just a little comforting to know that some monks have an explanation to how a monk that was a monk so long and was a teacher of others just leaves it - and that the reason would be because he didnt meditate the right way

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gavesako
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:29 pm

A woman, who has been the subject of speculation in previous weeks as the reason for renowned Japanese abbot Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leaving the monkhood, has introduced herself publicly through her Facebook page.
A single mother, 51-year-old Suttirat "Ann" Muttamara runs a widely known medical beauty centre. Her Facebook page carries a number of undated photos showing her posing with the former monk, now wearing normal clothes. ...

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nationa ... 09337.html

There are still some rumours going around about the disrobing circumstances and her role in it. :spy:
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Bankei
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by Bankei » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:34 pm

Mitsuo while a monk wrote many books which became popular. I recall one with the title "Thais are Kind". I wonder what will happen to the royalties from these books and the other wealth he built up as a monk.

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by chownah » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:36 am

Does anyone know what the difference is between a regular beauty center and a medical beauty center?
chownah

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Bankei wrote:Mitsuo while a monk wrote many books which became popular. I recall one with the title "Thais are Kind". I wonder what will happen to the royalties from these books and the other wealth he built up as a monk.
Bankei
It is a bit unfortunate that his disrobing coincided with other scandals involving Thai monks recently. But they should be kept well apart, after all Ajahn Mitsuo was never accused of any wrongdoing against the Vinaya while he was a monk, just the opposite: he was one of the inspiring monks of the forest tradition who tried to help various social projects as well. They did not sell his books, they were always sponsored for free distribution as is the rule in Ajahn Chah's monasteries. He could not amass personal wealth in private accounts either, although he probably still has his old followers who will now supprt him if he continues to teach as a layman.
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:25 pm

This is a really good reflection on the current events in the Sangha:


The problem with getting attached to things
Veena Thoopkrajae


The latest controversies involving monks have made many Thai people despair. Is Buddhism deteriorating because of the increasing number of misbehaving monks? Is the Lord Buddha's philosophy failing to enlighten the current generation of monks?
Before we all jump the gun, let's dig into the issue and seek the answers in simple dharma. Maybe the scandals are a blessing in disguise, if we adhere to the basic rule of karma - whatever happened, happened for a reason, and is the consequence of our collective actions, of our good and bad karma.
...
Many people express their sorrow and frustration about Mitsuo on social media, and many portray his wife as the villain. The thing is, the matter has gone beyond the point of return. "Live in the present," is another of the Lord Buddha's teachings. We may have to re-examine ourselves: if the monk was a car carrying us along the path to enlightenment, the car has broken down. All we have to do is take another car on the same path. Using plain Buddhist philosophy, you detach your thoughts of him as a monk, and move on.

Non-attachment is at times a rather tricky Buddhist concept because it seems so easy to follow as a principle; but in reality it can be so difficult to follow. The sadness of losing a teacher like Phra Mitsuo can well demonstrate the consequences of such attachment. "Whenever we attach, we are unhappy, and when we can detach, we are free from suffering," the late Buddhadasa has said.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 09812.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by BlackBird » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:54 pm

some journalist wrote:if we adhere to the basic rule of karma - whatever happened, happened for a reason, and is the consequence of our collective actions, of our good and bad karma.
I don't think that's what the Buddha taught about Kamma one little bit. That seems like fatalism to me, if not well intentioned fatalism.

It is Pubbekatahetuditthi nevertheless, and that is a wrong view. I have sent the author a nicely worded email asking for a minor correction.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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gavesako
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:57 pm

I think people might have misunderstood what she wants to say: She is addressing the kind of 'guru worship' that tends to happen in Thailand, whereby great numbers of Buddhists 'empower' a single individual (with expressions of their faith and financial donations, this is the 'collective karma') and then, when that individual falls from grace, they inevitably reap despair and disappoinment.
Last edited by gavesako on Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by Bankei » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:54 am

Yes, I agree the Mitsuo and Nenkham matters are completely different.

It is interesting, though, how fast Mitsuo married after disrobing. I have seen this happen, or similar happen, a few times with Thai monks. There is nothing wrong with this sort of thing, but I imagine the woman starts to get 'close' to the monk, going to see him often, talking often. They may get to know each others personal situation a bit from talking. The monk then starts to think, what if I disrobed... perhaps nothing is said to the woman until after they are a layman again and then suddenly they are a couple.

I knew one monk who had a woman come and visit him everyday in his kuti - outside and not alone. She would ring him every night. He disrobed and suddenly they were together within hours. About 6 months later I went back to that temple and the guy was a monk again. I think the girl dumped him, probably broke his heart too!
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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:40 am

Bankei wrote:I knew one monk who had a woman come and visit him everyday in his kuti - outside and not alone. She would ring him every night.
Isn't there a principle against that?
Ie. that a person ought to protect another person's status and spiritual practice?

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:21 pm

Here is a good article addressing the issues raised above:

Abusing my religion

Patcharawalai Sanyanusin

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... y-religion
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:58 pm

I'm sorry but I completely fail to see where there's a scandal in any Therevada monk that's keeping his vows leaving the monk hood and quickly getting married, although it doesn't happen very much with the older monks. As a short term Therevada Buddhist monk myself, I was taught that Thai/Cambodian/ Lao/ Burmese tradition was that every devout Buddhist youth was strongly encouraged to become a monk for a minimum of 3+ years to 3+ months, after which they decided whether to stay a monk if they didn't have a strong interest in marriage, or leave the monkhood and get married, usually in a very short term, At one temple I attended the young monk was dating the woman he was to marry, non physically meeting with her on an almost daily basis, this was not looked down upon, or frowned upon, in fact it was the traditional way in their cultures.

As soon as I did my three weeks as a monk and quit (because they wouldn't give me a medical exemption for my illness to eat after 12), My best monk friend, the one in my avatar picture set out to find me a Cambodian wife, he even had me lined up with the owner of a Cambodian Donut shop(free donuts for life!!!) but it was my awareness that marrying an American was a huge loss of face for a Cambodian woman to her family, I decided it just wasn't a good idea, though I would have loved to meet the Donut shop owner!!

Unlike Mahayana Buddhism, where some say you go to the lower realms if you ever quit being a monk, in Therevada tradition there is absolutely no teaching of negative karma for leaving being a monk(given you're keeping the precepts). Now of course most of this leaving the monkhood and quickly getting married occurs with monks in their 20s, for a respected teacher who has been a monk for 38 years it would be unexpected, but not a bad thing unless he had physically broken his vows while still a monk, and very quickly getting married does not classify as evidence he had broken his vows in my book. It can obviously be taken as evidence that he hadn't fully conquered sexual desire, but I don't think that's a crime, is it???

There are bigger monk fish to fry in this scandal business, This poor monk, Mitsuo, definetly does not deserve to be classified as scandalous the way some of these other monks obviously do.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by gavesako » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:15 pm

If you read the article to the end, it is clear that she does not put him in the same category as the other "scandalous" monks -- these incidents just happened to coincide and that is why they are being discussed on the same page.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Phra Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako leave the Buddhist monkhood?

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Sorry, my bad,I did read the article, I was responding more to the tone of the thread, I did think there's maybe 50 monks mentioned in the article out of how many monks in Thailand?? 10,000??? 100,000??? so perhaps we're not doing so bad, even the Buddha had to throw monks out of the order, didn't he??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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