The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:11 pm

Mkoll wrote: :jawdrop: :computerproblem: = surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"
Actually, just read the first 20 pages of this, which is not too much, and likely you will be jawdropping and omg-ing with actual indignation. After that just jump in anywhere and read a bit here and there and
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:11 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.
Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:
Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation
Remind me not to try that brand of humor again. :lol:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:15 pm

Mkoll wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.
Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:
Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation
Remind me not to try that brand of humor again. :lol:
Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:19 pm

Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
But you should comment.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:31 pm

I thought page 26 was useful.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
But you should comment.
I will say that now that I have a better idea of what a "Sujin-notions of mindfulness" is, as you mentioned at the beginning of the page, I know not to touch it with a yojana-long pole.

:lol:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:30 am

Mkoll wrote: I will say that now that I have a better idea of what a "Sujin-notions of mindfulness" is, as you mentioned at the beginning of the page, I know not to touch it with a yojana-long pole.
I certainly understand, but on the other hand such discussions can be of value in that it helps clarify one's own understanding, especially when faced with an unusual point of view. Again, without question I can understand not wanting to engage in such a discussion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by ancientbuddhism » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:50 pm

Matthew Kusota’s impressions of the Sujin cult may be of interest:

The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket
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cooran
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by cooran » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:33 pm

Hello ancientbuddhism, all,

There is no Sujin cult.

I attended a few of the regular study groups many years ago in Thailand. Her teachings and discussions are based on the the accepted Teachings of the Buddha in the Tipitaka and align with explanations by buddhist scholars.
There was no pressure or problem when I didn't hold the exactly same opinions as other members of the meeting.

I also met our Ven. Dhammanando and Bhikkhu Bodhi on separate occasions via this group.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:30 pm

cooran wrote:I attended a few of the regular study groups many years ago in Thailand. Her teachings and discussions are based on the the accepted Teachings of the Buddha in the Tipitaka and align with explanations by buddhist scholars.
That is, obviously, highly debatable.
There is no Sujin cult.
While I would not use the word cult in its pejorative sense, I certainly would use the word sectarian, in that she holds -- or certainly implies -- that she has the correct interpretation of the Dhamma and that those who try to practice meditation are acting, according to her distorted understanding of meditation practice, on lobha. And as we have seen in this thread there is a significant problem with her straw-man characterization of meditation practice that has been shown to fly in the face of what the suttas and the commentaries have to say. While there may be some virtue to Sujin practice, her teachings are, over all, highly idiosyncratic interpretations that are on the far margins.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:29 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:Matthew Kusota’s impressions of the Sujin cult may be of interest:

The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket
I didn't see cult used in Kosuta's piece?
There is a thread here which discusses his article:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... lit=kosuta

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:43 am

robertk wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:Matthew Kusota’s impressions of the Sujin cult may be of interest:

The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket
I didn't see cult used in Kosuta's piece?
There is a thread here which discusses his article:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... lit=kosuta
It is not used in the article. I am guessing that ancientbuddhism is using the word cult as result of how Sujin's followers come across online. While it may not be an appropriate word, it is an understandable as why it might be used.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:59 am

Ok I just reread it and this is how he describes her in the article:

So who is Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket and what is the DSSF? Ajaan Sujin's teachings are based primarily on the Theravada Abhidhamma-pitaka. She emphasizes the practice of being aware of the present moment's ultimate reality (paramattha dhamma) as the means to nibbāna. She has been guiding monks, nuns and laypeople for over 40 years. Ajann Sujin maintains a well-established, modern Dhamma center in the Bangkok area and presents daily radio talks on over 20 radio stations. She has been granted an honorary degree from a top Buddhist university and Ajaan Sujin has been honored by the King of Thailand for the positive effects that her work and Dhamma center have had on many Thai people.

She also has created some controversy. The controversy around her stems from her being a woman teaching the Dhamma, including teaching to bhikkhus, and from her interpretation of abhidhammic teachings and its often unorthodox effect on more traditional interpretations of the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas. An interpretation that I think pushes abhidhammic theory into a near expression of Mahayana Emptiness.
Although Ajaan Sujin speaks English quite well, much of her teachings are know to the English-speaking world through one of her longest associates, Nina Van Gorkom. Nearly all of the printed material in English has been translated or written by Ms Van Gorkom. Thus, her work provided the majority of the written sources I consulted. The senior student's command of Pali abhidhammic vocabulary is quite good. And in the case of Ajaan Sujin and Ms Van Gorkom, and perhaps others, their knowledge of the workings of the Abhidhammic theory is excellent.


Reading it he seems to feel that the Abhidhamma and commentaries, as much as Sujin, in places, run against his interpretations of the suttas.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:20 am

robertk wrote:
Reading it he seems to feel that the Abhidhamma and commentaries, as much as Sujin, in places run against his interpretations of the suttas.
There is a rather interesting question concerning the Abhidhamma, and that is the differences between the Pitaka texts and the later highly interpretive stuff such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, which does, indeed, push beyond the suttas. I think much of what we see talked about of the Abhidhamma comes from the later stuff, especially dhammas as realities..

What this thread has shown -- assuming that you are accurately reflecting Sujin -- is that her point of view does fly in the face of the suttas, and I have not been impressed with the Sujin interpretation -- assuming your are reflecting that -- of the commentaries, such as the VM.

Also, I am not taken with Kosuta's interpretation of Nagarjuna.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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