Dream World v Real World!

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Magoo
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by Magoo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:49 pm

I can only speak from my experience. When I am asleep, if I hear a loud noise I will wake up. If someone was to put under my nose something that smelt very strong, I would wake up. If I became cold, I would wake up. Therefore in some subtle way, my hearing consciousness, my smell consciousness and my touch consciousness must exist in some way, even when asleep?

This is my thoughts anyway.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:25 am

equilibrium wrote: emm.....waiting for death of my body?.....well, when we get to the end of this thread, hopefully you will realize that there is no such a thing as death.
This is why i'am waiting for. Because actualy i dont remember death, i dont know what heppens when the body die, so, to experiance it, and to know by myself, i'am waiting for it.
I you are alrady die, and can tell about it some details, i would like to listening to you, but anyway, i will waiting fo my own death for nedt hear it, but know it, or dont-know it.
Actualy death is the most important question of the life.
Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
Not conciousness, but memory about this consciousness that definies our personality.
If there is no brain to remember all concsients moments, so there is no ego.
If thee is no memory there is no dream

When a good prectitioner lives all time in the present moment, have a full consciousness, he dont have any more any memory, so he have not any dream about present life

Why you have a such attachement to the dream world? Or i dont fully understand your position? Whant is your position? :embarassed:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

pegembara
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by pegembara » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:34 am

equilibrium wrote:
Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)

Which consciousness are you referring to? Is there a consciousness apart from body (eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactile) and mind (intellect)?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:41 am

Magoo wrote:I can only speak from my experience. When I am asleep, if I hear a loud noise I will wake up. If someone was to put under my nose something that smelt very strong, I would wake up. If I became cold, I would wake up. Therefore in some subtle way, my hearing consciousness, my smell consciousness and my touch consciousness must exist in some way, even when asleep?

This is my thoughts anyway.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn
There is SN 14.1-10
About Elements
Eye elements, body elements etc. It's may be halpfull :namaste:

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:40 pm

kirk5a wrote:
equilibrium wrote:Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
I will be looking forward to how you explain the following, with regard to what you say above:
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That will be towards the end of this thread, maybe you can join us then.

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:56 pm

Magoo wrote:I can only speak from my experience. When I am asleep, if I hear a loud noise I will wake up. If someone was to put under my nose something that smelt very strong, I would wake up. If I became cold, I would wake up. Therefore in some subtle way, my hearing consciousness, my smell consciousness and my touch consciousness must exist in some way, even when asleep?

This is my thoughts anyway.

With MegaMetta
Eamonn
Yes, this is correct but the point being made is not about your consciousness being there, the point is what actually happens with your consciousness in varies states and why?
This is very important to grasp and it must be understood.....try read the previous 4 questions again and think about it.....really think about it.
If this consciousness is not grasped at this point, it will be very difficult to proceed to the next levels......because what is towards the end must be fully comprehended.
Let me know how you get on.

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:08 pm

DAWN wrote: Why you have a such attachement to the dream world? Or i dont fully understand your position? Whant is your position? :embarassed:
There are no such attachments for me.
We will soon get to a point where we will have a final understanding between both the dream world and the real world, why don't we discuss then because it is better that you see it for yourself.

As I have already mentioned before, any pre-conceived ideas must be removed, if not, it will be difficult for one to SEE clearly.

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:02 pm

pegembara wrote:
equilibrium wrote:
Consciousness is very important here hence consciousness defines who we are and "NOT" the body and mind. (more on this consciousness later)
Which consciousness are you referring to? Is there a consciousness apart from body (eye, ear, nose, tongue, tactile) and mind (intellect)?
Again you have to truly grasp what consciousness is as per my recent reply and questions.
As per reply to Magoo.

When we understand consciousness, we can now have a better understanding on the teachings of different planes of existence.....and how they consist of varies states due to ones conditions.
It is now possible to visualise this with a better understanding why and how it works as per each beings like animals, ghost and heaven planes etc.....even the hell plane.
Although we cannot see them yet unless it is the animals plane, at least we are in a position to see the bigger picture.
Hence you will realize how suffering is being done.....But when you cross the line, it will reveal another story that will really surprise you!.....so be ready.

There is a saying: "One who sees the dhamma sees me" meaning when you cross the line, you will see the real meaning of his teaching.....the Buddha.


On the subject of the real world, can we agree that it is simply everything that we perceive with our senses? (eyes, ears, nose, body, taste and mind)

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:45 pm

equilibrium wrote:
As I have already mentioned before, any pre-conceived ideas must be removed, if not, it will be difficult for one to SEE clearly.
It's sure :namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:05 am

It is time to wrap things up.

Arguments for the “Dream World” as follows:

MN 106: by santa100:
“The Blessed One said: "Monks, sensuality is inconstant, hollow, vain, deceptive. It is illusory, the babble of fools. Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come: both are Mara's realm, Mara's domain, Mara's bait, Mara's range. They lead to these evil, unskillful mental states: greed, ill will, & contentiousness. They arise for the obstruction of a disciple of the noble ones here in training.”

By reflection:
“Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless.”
“The heedful die not.”

SN 35.115:
"Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye - agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing,
fostering desire, enticing. If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened
to them, he is said to be a monk freed from forms cognizable by the eye. He has not gone
over to Mara's camp; he has not come under Mara's power. The Evil One cannot do with him
as he wills.

Abhidhamma View : Evil and Mara: by Yawares:
Mara is known as the Evil One; the Buddha is known as the Blessed One. Mara is the personification of Death: "the kilesas (defilements) also came to be called Mara in that they were instruments of Death, the causes enabling Death to hold sway over the world".

Mara is also called the lord of death (Maccuraaja), the exterminator (Antaka), the great king (Mahaaraaja), and the inescapable (Namuci).

Why is Mara so powerful?
The five strands of sensuality (kaama-guna): forms, sounds, aromas, flavors, tactile sensations plus ideas are Mara's power and the most powerful striking force.

"There are forms, monks, cognizable via the eye-- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, & remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk fettered to forms cognizable by the eye. He has gone over to Mara's camp; he has come under Mara's power. The Evil One can do with him as he wills".

SN 12.15: by pegembara:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

Suttras:
"The Awaken One".....why would one need to wake up if it is real? This would only happen when one is asleep.

Matrix Film:
The film shows that Neo is "plugged in"......meaning it is not real.

Arguments for the “Real World” as follows:

Simply everything that we perceive with our senses? (eyes, ears, nose, body, taste and mind)

According to the sutras and other clues provided to date, it clearly shows that we are in fact in a dream world, full of illusions. Why would one need to be awakened if this is not a dream? Neo being “plugged in” clearly shows that it is not real.

But according to the great majority of human beings, they believe that everything they perceive is in fact real.....is this really true?

So where do you stand to date, are you in the dream world or are you still in the real world?

Here is a very simple question for those who still believe this is the real world as it currently stands:
The teaching of the Buddha is to allow one to escape samsara, it is telling you that everything is an illusion, a dream and one would need to wake up from that dream.....but yet, you choose to believe in your own senses.........WHY? So why did you take up Buddhism for?

Anyone brave enough to answer the question?

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manas
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by manas » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:05 am

equilibrium wrote:There is a saying in a film:
"Have you ever had a dream that it was so real, what if you were never to wake up from that dream, how would you know the difference between the dream world and the real word?"

What does the above statement mean to you?
Do you think you are in a dream world or are you in the real world?.....more importantly.....are you awake?.....do you SEE any differences?
Greetings equilibrium,

ahh one of my favourite topics...don't let me loose with this one...

Seriously though, in the last year, I have had these moments when I seem to 'wake up' and realize "what the heck is this situation - here I am, identifying with this fleshy, squishy mass of flesh, blood and bone, which any moment could get crushed, burned or otherwise destroyed...this is insane!!!" - but then it passes, after all I've got to get the kids to school, keep looking for work, clean the house etc...life goes on. But yes, this is dream like in this sense: it could all be over in a flash, and for someone, somewhere it (probably) just was, as this paragraph was being read. Someone driving along, planning for the evening ahead, when BAM - a truck wipes them off the road. Then, what?

What is a 'dream' is this stubborn and prevasive idea that this is somehow our home. There is no goddamn home. Just a process of becoming. But it feels like this is about 'me', this fragile and contingent life of mine!

EDIT: Oops, I just saw that you wanted to wrap this up...should I delete this now? :thinking:

:meditate:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

Buckwheat
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by Buckwheat » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:51 am

equilibrium wrote:...the point is what actually happens with your consciousness in varies states and why?
Why? because all states of consciousness are anicca (impermanent, uncertain, etc.)

Who am I? What am I? What will I be? What was I? Who cares? I think it's more important to experiment with learning to develop skillful states of consciousness and abandon unskillful states of consciousness. Dreaming does not seem inherently skillful or unskillful, much as being awake is not inherently skillful or unskillful. But I do know compassion and wisdom are skillful, and that greed hate and delusion are unskillful. Are your dreams characterized by fear, hate, or greed? Then maybe try a dietary change, stress management, or dealing with a looming issue to eradicate the unskillful state of mind before bedtime.

I've never been a very lucid dreamer, but I recently started having very long dreams where I live out a day or two with a fair amount of detail. Sometimes I wake up and think I could write an entire book about the dream. At the same time, it still feels a little bit fake.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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DAWN
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by DAWN » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:01 am

manas wrote: What is a 'dream' is this stubborn and prevasive idea that this is somehow our home. There is no goddamn home. Just a process of becoming. But it feels like this is about 'me', this fragile and contingent life of mine!
This feeling arise from association of consciousness and brain, like a vidio.
There is the light of consciousness
There is a film of brain memory

Dhamma of body live, be leading by causes and consequances, form (body/brain) have a contact with consciousness, consciousness shows the moment by enlighting, this moment is memorised, and one moment of kammic mouvement after another the illution on personality arise. Memory, information being stored in the same place (brain), create this illution of continuity.

But we must to know that there is no consiousness withour form, there is no divition between concsiousness and form, when tere is the form there is concsiousness when there is no form, there is no concisousness.
Dhp.Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Magoo
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by Magoo » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:14 am

Here is a very simple question for those who still believe this is the real world as it currently stands:
The teaching of the Buddha is to allow one to escape samsara, it is telling you that everything is an illusion, a dream and one would need to wake up from that dream.....but yet, you choose to believe in your own senses.........WHY? So why did you take up Buddhism for?
My understanding is that it is not the senses that are the big issue. We are human, we see, taste, touch, smell, hear and we also have a mind. They are very useful and alone are real. But when the five aggregates all work together to create the experience, then our perceptions are attached to teh sense consciousness, which can be very distorted in many ways. This now becomes more like a dream, not real and could be said to be an illusion as we tend to add so much to what we experience. It is not the way things are.

The Buddha alerted me to this, which has been of great help. Now my task is to let go of these wrong perceptions, pre-conceived views and opinions and try to take on the moment as it is...just like this! This is why I am a Dhamma Practicioner. Make it simple.

Thats my little take on it.

Thanks you.

With Metta
Eamonn

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equilibrium
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Re: Dream World v Real World!

Post by equilibrium » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:40 pm

Buckwheat wrote: Why? because all states of consciousness are anicca (impermanent, uncertain, etc.)
Saying consciousness is impermanent is not going to cut it. It is the same as saying there is no self.
There is something more important that needs to be understood and fully comprehended before one can SEE.

If one cannot SEE one cannot do..........more later.

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