No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Alex123
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

IMHO, By fulfilling the actual practice, one will see these characteristics for oneself. Focus on the causes and results (seeing triple characteristics, Awakening) will follow.

It could be that merely repeating and studying (anicca, dukkha, anatta) is very limited. Much better to have direct and personal vision of it. If these are present in every mental state, then it should be seen by us when sati is developed well enough.

When someone tells "anicca", it could merely be the sound. But if one discovers it for oneself through mindfulness, then the personal knowledge is not a mere sound.
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tiltbillings
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by tiltbillings »

In a section entitle "Impermanence" Ven Analayo, in his book on satipatthana, wrote:
  • The 'refrain' instructs the meditator to contemplate "the nature of arising", and "the nature of passing away, and "the nature of both arising and passing away." . . . this instruction represents) a temporal progression which leads from the observing the arising aspect of phenomenon to focusing on their disappearance, and culminating in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. . . . The other two characteristics of conditioned existence -- dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (absence of self) -- become evident as a consequence of a direct experience and thereby realistic appreciation of the truth of impermanence. -- Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, p 103-4.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by bodom »

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body.

"Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well two of the three are covered anyway.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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tiltbillings
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by tiltbillings »

bodom wrote: Well two of the three are covered anyway.
  • ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by bodom »

tiltbillings wrote:In a section entitle "Impermanence" Ven Analayo, in his book on satipatthana, wrote:
  • The 'refrain' instructs the meditator to contemplate "the nature of arising", and "the nature of passing away, and "the nature of both arising and passing away." . . . this instruction represents) a temporal progression which leads from the observing the arising aspect of phenomenon to focusing on their disappearance, and culminating in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. . . . The other two characteristics of conditioned existence -- dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (absence of self) -- become evident as a consequence of a direct experience and thereby realistic appreciation of the truth of impermanence. -- Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, p 103-4.
:goodpost:

Similarly Ajahn Chah in his many teachings always emphasised that seeing impermanence was the doorway into seeing the other two characteristics.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by bodom »

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote: Well two of the three are covered anyway.
  • ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.

Well there you have it. Good stuff tilt thanks.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Assaji
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Assaji »

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?
Buddha describes in the sutta the same practice, but in other words.

As explained in the Commentary:

Samudayadhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." In this contemplation of feeling, the bhikkhu dwells seeing the origination and the dissolution of the aggregate of feeling or seeing the origination of feeling at one time and the dissolution of feeling at another time, by way of ignorance, craving and so forth, in the five ways mentioned in the Section on the Modes of Deportment.

Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality."

In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving, karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana].

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Contemplating arising and cessation in terms of Conditioned Arising http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is the essence of recognition of impermanence (anicca-sanna)
(see Aniccasanna sutta, Samyutta Nikaya, Khandhavagga, §102, Ro: 3.154).

Metta,

Dmytro
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Try looking at the refrain...
it is not direct i.e. the words are not there but it they are certainly implied quite strongly in my opinion wtiw.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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vinasp
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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

The wording changes in the last section:

1. Contemplation of Body: " ... abides contemplating the body as a body."

2. Contemplation of Feeling: " .. abides contemplating feelings as feelings."

3. Contemplation of Mind: " ... abides contemplating mind as mind."

4. Contemplation of Mind-Objects: ".. abides contemplating mind-objects as
mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances."

We are not told what the mind-objects are, only that they are contemplated
"in terms of" - or in the context of - the five hindrances.

[ or the five aggregates of clinging, or the six internal and external bases.]

I think it means seeing how these things originate from mind-objects, and
therefore cease when the mind object ceases.

Regards, Vincent.
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