Kill the Buddha- save the world

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:31 pm

danieLion wrote:"believing in Buddhism"is micha-ditthi (wrong view).
Not it isn't.

Buckwheat
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Buckwheat » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:08 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:"believing in Buddhism"is micha-ditthi (wrong view).
Not it isn't.
One does not have to believe. Just see the truth for what it is. Suffering. Cause. Cessation. Path. Nothing to believe, only see.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:42 pm

Buckwheat wrote:One does not have to believe. Just see the truth for what it is. Suffering. Cause. Cessation. Path. Nothing to believe, only see.
Yes, well, that's a common platitude, but it's probably worthwhile being intellectually honest and vigorous enough to look at just how much of our motivation at any given moment is influenced by belief. In the context of practice, first of all, one has be motivated to actually engage in the ethical and contemplative training and then choose to go for refuge in the three jewels instead of one's own delusional thoughts and emotions. Then one has to at the very least tacitly accept the premise that craving sensual pleasure, craving existence, and craving non-existence is the origin of suffering, in order to be willing to begin to abandon habitual actions, and so on. This is no small thing.

danieLion
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by danieLion » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:06 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:"believing in Buddhism"is micha-ditthi (wrong view).
Not it isn't.
where in the suttas did the Buddha teach you have to believe in Buddhism to be a Buddhist?

santa100
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by santa100 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:25 pm

There're different degrees of belief, and they get deeper as we progress along the path. Bhikkhu Boddhi put it best:

"The proper response to the Buddha as refuge is trust and confidence. Trust is required because the doctrine taught by the Buddha runs counter to our innate understanding of ourselves and our natural orientation toward the world. To accept this teaching thus tends to arouse an inner resistance, even to provoke a rebellion against the changes it requires us to make in the way we lead our lives. But when we place trust in the Buddha we open ourselves to his guidance. By going to him for refuge we show that we are prepared to recognize that our inherent tendencies to self-affirmation and grasping are in truth the cause of our suffering. And we are ready to accept his counsel that to become free from suffering, these tendencies must be controlled and eliminated.

Confidence in the Buddha as our refuge is initially awakened when we contemplate his sublime virtues and his excellent teaching. It grows through our undertaking of the training. At first our confidence in the Buddha may be hesitant, punctured by doubts and perplexity. But as we apply ourselves to the practice of his path, we find that our defilements gradually lessen, that wholesome qualities increase, and with this comes a growing sense of freedom, peace and joy. This experience confirms our initial trust, disposing us to advance a few steps further. When at last we see the truth of the Dhamma for ourselves, the refuge in the Buddha becomes inviolable. Confidence then becomes conviction, the conviction that the Blessed One is "the speaker, the proclaimer, the bringer of the good, the giver of the Deathless, the lord of the Dhamma, the Tathagata."

~~ Refuge in the Buddha - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_21.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ~~

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:41 pm

:goodpost:

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:58 pm

danieLion wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:"believing in Buddhism"is micha-ditthi (wrong view).
Not it isn't.
where in the suttas did the Buddha teach you have to believe in Buddhism to be a Buddhist?
Firstly, "Buddhism" is merely a designation that primarily refers to the Buddha, dhamma, and sangha. Without developing faith and going for refuge in these three jewels there is no connection with the noble eightfold path. SN 48. 44 Pubbakoṭṭhaka Sutta:
  • Good, good Sāriputta! Those by whom this has not been known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with wisdom -- they would have to go by faith in others about this: that the faculty of faith ... the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness .. the faculty of concentration ... the faculty of wisdom, when developed and cultivated, has the deathless as its ground, the deathless as its destination, the deathless as its final goal.
Secondly, you said "'believing in Buddhism'is micha-ditthi (wrong view)." This statement not only denies all possibilities wherein one can meaningfully believe in Buddhism and have right view, it asserts that any such belief is necessarily not Buddhist, i.e. that belief somehow precludes one from being a Buddhist. This is simply mistaken.

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Ben
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Ben » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:28 pm

Greetings Geoff,

Can you explain what you mean by "faith"?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

danieLion
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by danieLion » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:14 am

danieLion wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:"believing in Buddhism"is micha-ditthi (wrong view).
Not it isn't.
where in the suttas did the Buddha teach you have to believe in Buddhism to be a Buddhist?
Ñāṇa wrote:Firstly, "Buddhism" is merely a designation that primarily refers to the Buddha, dhamma, and sangha. Without developing faith and going for refuge in these three jewels there is no connection with the noble eightfold path. SN 48. 44 Pubbakoṭṭhaka Sutta:
  • Good, good Sāriputta! Those by whom this has not been known, seen, understood, realized, and contacted with wisdom -- they would have to go by faith in others about this: that the faculty of faith ... the faculty of energy ... the faculty of mindfulness .. the faculty of concentration ... the faculty of wisdom, when developed and cultivated, has the deathless as its ground, the deathless as its destination, the deathless as its final goal.
Secondly, you said "'believing in Buddhism'is micha-ditthi (wrong view)." This statement not only denies all possibilities wherein one can meaningfully believe in Buddhism and have right view, it asserts that any such belief is necessarily not Buddhist, i.e. that belief somehow precludes one from being a Buddhist. This is simply mistaken.
You're "Firstly" is a weak cover-up of the deficiency of sutta support behind your opinion that the Buddha taught us to believe in Buddhism as a requirement to walk/fabricate The Path. The Buddha never taught that "faith" or "refuge" are required and you can't support that view via the suttas without a whole lot of fancy hermeneutic inference.

Your "Secondly" is mere hair-splitting. I don't care if it's technically wrong view or not. Perhaps I should've initially just said what I really meant: it's stupid to believe in something the Buddha himself never taught.

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:31 am

danieLion wrote:Perhaps I should've initially just said what I really meant: it's stupid to believe in something the Buddha himself never taught.
The suttas certainly affirm the development of faith. But it seems that you have a strong aversion to faith-based practice, believing such practice orientation is "stupid." Such a belief is not only inaccurate, it sounds intolerant to me.

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:12 am

Ben wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "faith"?
I think there's already been quite a bit written about this topic by authors such as Ven. Bodhi. I recognize that it's something of a hot-button issue for some people Ben, and I'm not sure that there's much I can add except to suggest that there is a whole spectrum of reasonable, intelligent saddhā that doesn't resort to what is pejoratively referred to as "blind faith," but is still faith in something which is beyond the sphere of certain confirmation via our current perceptions. Primarily, faith requires believing in the awakening of the Buddha. SN 55.37:
  • "In what way, venerable sir, is a lay follower accomplished in faith?"

    "Here, Mahānāma, a lay follower is a person of faith. He places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathāgata thus: 'The Blessed One is ... teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' In that way a lay follower is accomplished in faith."
And faith in the Tathāgata is connected to hearing the dhamma; i.e. it's not something that we can confirm with our worldly perceptions. MN 112:
  • Friends, formerly when I lived the home life I was ignorant. Then the Tathāgata or his disciple taught me the Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma I acquired faith in the Tathāgata.
Also, it's only with the attainment of stream-entry that one's faith becomes confirmed, unshakable confidence (aveccapassāda). Until this noble stage is attained, not only are we are going to have to deal with the fetter of doubt, we are going to have to continually seek refuge in an authority that is more reliable than our own deluded perceptions.
Last edited by Nyana on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by danieLion » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:27 am

For most of us Westerners this is the strongest power—the strongest obstacle in our practice—that wish for things to be other than they are. And we use the practice sometimes to reinforce that habit. This is why there came a time in my practice when I said, ‘Forget about Buddhism, forget about the Buddha, forget about the nuns—forget about everything. Just drop it and pretend there’s nothing there.’ That’s been the most extraordinary, liberating experience….

If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha. That’s exactly what it is [giggling]. If you see the practice, kill the practice. If you hold onto the practice too tight, just kill it.
Ajahn Sundara, The Way Things Should Be, Part 1. 16:21-17:15 (http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Nyana
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Nyana » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:33 am

danieLion wrote:
If you hold onto the practice too tight, just kill it.
Ajahn Sundara, The Way Things Should Be, Part 1. 16:21-17:15 (http://forestsanghapublications.org/viewTalk.php?id=385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Of course holding too tight is counterproductive. This truism also includes holding tightly to aversion towards faith and faith-based practices.

danieLion
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by danieLion » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:50 am

[Amaro paraphrasing a Chinese Buddhist Abbot of a monastery in Californian during his talk at an inter-faith gathering the Abbot's monastery] ‘The whole point is not how right we are or how strong our faith is in what we know, but how much we can trust that certainty. If our faith in that is complete we’ll be able to be in harmony with others; if our faith in that is not complete then we need to defend ourselves against others because others are a threat; and if others are not a threat, then we don’t need to defend ourselves and so there’s a quality of human friendliness and warmth….

What we’re trying to do as Buddhists is not to promote Buddhism—that’s not our goal. We’re Buddhists, but we’re not trying to promote Buddhism. What we’re trying to promote is human virtue…, goodness….’

The Dalai Lama said exactly the same thing when it was proposed to him that the fundamental duty of Buddhists was to spread the Buddha-dhamma. He said, ‘No! That absolutely wrong.’ The audience looked shocked. He said, ‘That’s absolutely wrong view. We’re not here to promote Buddha-dhamma. What we’re trying to do is promote compassion and kindness. That’s our first duty as Buddhists.’ Buddhism comes second. Kindness and compassion comes first. I think in that spirit…, if that priority is there, then our Buddhism will flourish and we’ll actually be practicing Buddhism in a much more complete and full way than if we’re kind of waving our Buddhist flag furiously and using that as a kind of identity, just a thing that we want…and makes us feel secure just because we belong to something. It’s just like supporting the Liverpool Football Club or the Labour Party, or whoever…. A true religion needs to be something more than just a tribe that we belong to.
Ajahn Amaro, The Unity of All Religions 13:14-15:46 (http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... hp?id=1058" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

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Ben
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Re: Kill the Buddha- save the world

Post by Ben » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:15 am

Thanks Geoff,
Ñāṇa wrote:
Ben wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "faith"?
I think there's already been quite a bit written about this topic by authors such as Ven. Bodhi. I recognize that it's something of a hot-button issue for some people Ben, and I'm not sure that there's much I can add except to suggest that there is a whole spectrum of reasonable, intelligent saddhā that doesn't resort to what is pejoratively referred to as "blind faith," but is still faith in something which is beyond the sphere of certain confirmation via our current perceptions. Primarily, faith requires believing in the awakening of the Buddha. SN 55.37:
  • "In what way, venerable sir, is a lay follower accomplished in faith?"

    "Here, Mahānāma, a lay follower is a person of faith. He places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathāgata thus: 'The Blessed One is ... teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' In that way a lay follower is accomplished in faith."
And faith in the Tathāgata is connected to hearing the dhamma; i.e. it's not something that we can confirm with our worldly perceptions. MN 112:
  • Friends, formerly when I lived the home life I was ignorant. Then the Tathāgata or his disciple taught me the Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma I acquired faith in the Tathāgata.
Also, it's only with the attainment of stream-entry that one's faith becomes confirmed, unshakable confidence (aveccapassāda). Until this noble stage is attained, not only are we are going to have to deal with the fetter of doubt, we are going to have to continually seek refuge in an authority that is more reliable than our own deluded perceptions.
My reason for asking is to find out exactly what you mean when you use the word "faith". The term is subject to overlays of meanings. So it is good to know what it refers when you use the term rather than what is not meant. Having said that, I hope to provide a more substantial response later.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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