Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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cooran
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by cooran » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:01 pm

Hello Qtt, all,

This might help:

THERAVADA VERSION OF THE TWO TRUTHS
Y. KARUNADASA Visiting Professor Centre of Buddhist Studies, University of Hong Kong
(Emeritus Professor, University of Kelaniya, Sri Lanka)

http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/094.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 pm

cooran wrote:This might help:
This was already linked...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

Image
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:47 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?
As usual no heavy lifting from you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.
What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:55 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.
What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response. You tend make snide and dismissive remarks about various teachings with which you disagree and when asked about what you are saying you just refuse to explain your remarks, and so it goes here, again.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.
You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, it actually cuts to the chase, but you'll see what you want.
tiltbillings wrote:snide and dismissive remarks
tiltbillings wrote:you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers
Indeed.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Alex123
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 pm

Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
If it was very important, then the Buddha would frequently and clearly teach about it and there would be no doubt if He taught it.

nītattha and neyyattha are mentioned in two similar suttas out of thousands of suttas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And these terms do not even need to be interpreted as saying about two truths.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:11 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.
You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, actually, but you'll see what you want.
I'll be happy to answer the question, but I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.

Basically, I would like to know what it is that you guys think the two truth notion is actually saying and why it is wrong, as your dismissals seem to suggest..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:14 pm

Alex123 wrote:Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
If it was very important, then the Buddha would frequently and clearly teach about it and there would be no doubt if He taught it.
So, if it is not clearly spelled out in the suttas, then drawing out any implication found in the suttas is an inappropriate thing to do, so it would seem. It that what you are saying.

But what I would like to know for you dismissal guys is what you think the two truth doctrine is actually saying, and then why it is wrong, as your dismissals seem to suggest.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:16 pm

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
I won't be engaging with such an immature question, thank you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.
AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
I won't be engaging with such an immature question, thank you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you do not like the legitimate word pooh-pooh, the substitute the word dismiss.

You stated:
Yes - have heard the distinction between these two modes being regarded by some as "conventional language" and "Dhamma language".

One does not negate the other of course, but only one communicates the unique, deep and original Dhammic insights that the Buddha brought to the table.

That's a slightly different spectrum though to the distinction between sutta language and paramattha dhammas.
Are we to read this as a dismissal? It seems to be, but it is unclear what you actually think two truth notion is saying and why it is wrong, as seems to be implied in this not very clear msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:31 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.
AN 4.42 wrote:"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."
Okay, then let mne simply say that I'll be happy to address your question when I understand what your objection is to the tweo truth notion. That is what I want to address. It may be that your objection is quite valid. I do not think that one must accept the two truths notion, but I a curious about the dismissal of it beyond what very little that has been said here by those are dismissing it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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