Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sanghamitta
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Sanghamitta »

The issue is not my perception. And it is not just me.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Ben »

Hi Matheesha,
rowyourboat wrote:It still allows me to have a different opinion from you I hope.
I don't have a problem with anyone having a different opinion from me. If I did, I wouldn't participate on a discussion forum. In fact, I think I am nothing but very supportive of anyone - regardless of who their teacher is - to engage in practice. My objection is that your opinion, from my humble perspective, has been formulated without any direct experience and very little knowledge of Goenka and what he teaches, and that opinion is packaged, no doubt unintentionally, within an appeal to authority of your position as meditation teacher. Despite my attempts to explain aspects of Goenka's teaching to you, it appears that you had already developed a view with regards to what you believe is a defective method.
rowyourboat wrote:You a valuable member in all these groups.
Thank you, as i also consider you here.
rowyourboat wrote:I do not air my views out of malice, but out of concern.
I understand.
rowyourboat wrote:I hope I can share my understanding so that all of us here can have a decent discussion and I am open to being corrected as well.
Absolutely.
with metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi All

For my final post on this thread (clearly this is too controversial for some..) I thought I would summarize my concerns. Feel free to critizice/comment/question. I may answer if there is a genuine concern.

1) One and a half days of anapanasati is not enough to get to citta visuddhi- to develop a hindrance free samadhi. It takes atleast 3-5 days in my experience. So you are starting off with not enough samadhi, having to develop it while doing the body scan which is very active (due to sweeping) not creating the optimum environement for the development of samadhi. People also take different lengths of time to develop samadhi. So I think whether a Goenka practitioner develops samadhi is hit or miss.

2) Ditti visuddhi- Nama- rupa paricceda nana. Over a period of time one may develop the ability to differentiate between nama and rupa components using this method. However I have my doubts whether this would happen within one 10 day retreat, as different people have different developmental trajectories in meditation. Therefore any taped statements from Goenka about the general development of a group of students on retreat is likely to be rather inacurate.

3) Cause and effect (khankaviatharana visuddhi, paccaya parigghaha nana). - This is likely to be missed. It maybe possible to see nama and rupa, but to note how one gives rise to the other to a degree enough to give rise to anatta is going to be rather difficult without intentionally focusing on that aspect... -and certainly not within one retreat. No hanga nana without going past these.

4) Tilakkana (this is sammassana naana). Without seeing cause and effect, without seeing the mind which most people equate with the self (for some it is the body) it wont be possible to dispel the myth of anatta. Any method which focuses on only the body and leave the mind to chance is likely to miss out greatly as there will be all kinds of attachment to mental states which are not fully explored, leading to all kinds of attachments/avijja still remaining, making it impossible to come to the end of a cycle of vipassana (ie magga phala).

5) Not seeing the ending (impermanence) of vinnana (consciousness) -apart from Nama- Rupa. Most people consider awareness or consciousness as being closely linked to them selves. Without actually seeing how this arises and passes away (rather than just knowing the theory) it will be very difficult to get over the idea of vinnana as the self or that vinnana is permanent. This is also at the sammassana level. This is also very inefficiently done by focusing on the body.

6) Udaya vyaya- when seeing a mass of vibrations arising and passing away you will see some degree of anicca and sunyata, but without focusing on one object completely arising and completely falling into dissolution at a time, it will be again difficult to get to proper udayabyaya which can lead to bhanaga nana. This is because as long as there is something to see- another vibration vibrating away somewhere nearby a subtle delusion of permanence still remains. Seeing it in this way is not limited to a one time event (falling asleep for example is not bhana even though everything vanishes nor is all the body vibrations disappearing once - a point where some assistants have described bhanga nana as- see more descriptions of it in the next point) but it must be something one sees moment by moment over hours- days. The practitioner would need to go past the vipassana upakilesa as well (samadhi, piti, upekka, light, delusions of insight and magga-phala etc)

6) Finally we arrive at bhanga nana (and not Bhanga- the latter which simply means passing away- anyone can see that in anything quite easily and doest require buddhist practice or the progressive development of the faculties). The practitioner must be sh...ing himself when he sees this. It is quite scary. Some people feel like running away from the monastery. Everything feels like it is breaking apare or empty (not actually seeing a change in what one sees, but the awareness becomes inclined in this way to feel it like this) others feel like stopping the meditation. They might even think they are hallucinating or be quite distressed. If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana. This is one of the methods we use to see if a yogi has truly attained these stages of insight-understanding. There must be a negative emotional reaction. This emotional reaction also embeds the insight knowledge deeply in the unconscious making it possible for the cascade of insight knowledges to progress further. The changes which happen in vipassana cannot be willed. They need to unfold by themselves. I hope this is clear.

Bhanga nana cannot be arrived at without passing the other gates first. These are gates in the sense you cannot get to an insight knoweldge further along the line, without having passed them first. So in a nutshell these are my concerns re the Goekna method in its inefficiency to help the practitioner along these lines. Personally the method might help a person to develop some good faculties like samadhi over a period of time, but when it requires commitment ('this method and nothing else') and considering how expanded it is internationally it can cause a great deal of damage by shutting the door to a vast number of practitioners from progressing further. However I see on other forums as well, the idea of starting with Goenka and moving on to Mahasi/other traditions is gaining currency.

with metta

Matheesha (RYB)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings RYB,

I hope you'll recant your earlier statement of non-participation at least long enough to answer the following query...
rowyourboat wrote:6) Udaya vyaya- when seeing a mass of vibrations arising and passing away you will see some degree of anicca and sunyata, but without focusing on one object completely arising and completely falling into dissolution at a time, it will be again difficult to get to proper udayabyaya which can lead to bhanaga nana.
This sentence brings to mind the recent discussion on "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval", in which most participants were of the opinion that there isn't anything which "endures unchanged for at least a certain interval". If that is so, does it matter greatly if there is movement in the area of focus, when remaining stationary for only the briefest moment would be required to see the arising and cessation?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Ben »

rowyourboat wrote:One and a half days of anapanasati is not enough to...

Kindly get your facts straight, Matheesha!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Ben

Oh looks like you found a mistake :smile: You are correct. Is it 3 days rather than 1 and half? That sounds about enough time for what is attempted in a 10 day course. Do you do it for more in longer retreats? Does Goenka ever train students in jhana, since you have mentioned longer retreats, I am curious.

with metta
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fijiNut
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by fijiNut »

Sanghamitta wrote:The issue is not my perception. And it is not just me.
I think RYB's advice provides a good sounding board for Dhamma practice, but then again, thats just my perception.
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Hanzze
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

Hanzze wrote:Wouldn't it be great if we would also able to bring so much benefit to others like Goenka and people right next to us. A big bow in front of all teachers putting there patient, compassion and time for developing our minds. :bow: :bow: right livelihood at its highest level

namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
:thumbsup: Well said Hanzze.No matter what tradition they are, there are indeed many good people out there whose only desire is to help others.
With metta
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by jd84 »

rowyourboat wrote: If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana.
hi RYB, I think I read the post that you are quoting from and I think there might be some crossed wires somewhere. I could be wrong but I get the impression that what that guy was talking about (the reason why people keep coming back to goenka courses) is a dissolution of the surface of the body ie "a free flow of sensations from head to feet." This of course isn't bhanga nana but is a very pleasant experience (so I have been told) that people can attain quite quickly if they take well to this technique.

And to clear another thing up.... I think Goenka says that around one third of a retreat should be dedicated to anapana.

metta

jon
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Ben »

jd84 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana.
hi RYB, I think I read the post that you are quoting from and I think there might be some crossed wires somewhere. I could be wrong but I get the impression that what that guy was talking about (the reason why people keep coming back to goenka courses) is a dissolution of the surface of the body ie "a free flow of sensations from head to feet." This of course isn't bhanga nana but is a very pleasant experience (so I have been told) that people can attain quite quickly if they take well to this technique.

And to clear another thing up.... I think Goenka says that around one third of a retreat should be dedicated to anapana.

metta

jon
Hi Jon

Perhaps you weren't listening when Mr Goenka said repeatedly "do not make a game of sensations", or when he advised students not to seek "something special", and warned of the dangers of being seduced by pleasant meditative experiences. Perhaps some freshly minted old-students return to try for the experience of bhanga-nana but they soon find, if they are practicing correctly, that all experiences are dukkha, experience nibbida and develop strong samvega. And if they progress and continue to return for 10-day (or longer) courses it is because of the enormous benefit they receive as a result of doing those courses and daily practice.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
jd84
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by jd84 »

Ben wrote:
jd84 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana.
hi RYB, I think I read the post that you are quoting from and I think there might be some crossed wires somewhere. I could be wrong but I get the impression that what that guy was talking about (the reason why people keep coming back to goenka courses) is a dissolution of the surface of the body ie "a free flow of sensations from head to feet." This of course isn't bhanga nana but is a very pleasant experience (so I have been told) that people can attain quite quickly if they take well to this technique.

And to clear another thing up.... I think Goenka says that around one third of a retreat should be dedicated to anapana.

metta

jon
Hi Jon

Perhaps you weren't listening when Mr Goenka said repeatedly "do not make a game of sensations", or when he advised students not to seek "something special", and warned of the dangers of being seduced by pleasant meditative experiences. Perhaps some freshly minted old-students return to try for the experience of bhanga-nana but they soon find, if they are practicing correctly, that all experiences are dukkha, experience nibbida and develop strong samvega. And if they progress and continue to return for 10-day (or longer) courses it is because of the enormous benefit they receive as a result of doing those courses and daily practice.

Hello there Ben,

more wires crossed by the looks of it and maybe I should have left you guys to it. I'll try and explain myself...

I wasn't talking about myself there, someone in an earlier post had written that he thought people kept coming back to the 10 day courses because of bhanga nana. I was just trying to explain to RYB that I thought he was using the term bhanga nana incorrectly (he probably meant people keep coming back because of the free flow). I wasn't commenting on whether its right or wrong to strive for special experiences or saying that I think that's what people tend to do at goenka courses. Was just speculating on what said bloke had really meant.


No games of sensation... agreed

People come back as a result of the enormous benefits from courses and daily practice.... agreed


Hope that made some sense... Apologies if you still don't understand !

Jon
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by Ben »

no problem, jon!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by rowyourboat »

Ben wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Goenka in my opinion is introductory practice.
Well, that's an interesting comment.

A couple of quotes to ponder...

From Day 3 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:May all of you be successful in taking the first steps on the path of liberation
From Day 4 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:You have taken a first step on the path to liberation...

...You have started taking dips in the Ganges of Dhamma within,
From Day 9 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:You have taken a first step towards eradicating your defilements
From Day 11 discourse:
SN Goenka wrote:In ten days one can get only a rough outline of the technique; one cannot expect to become perfect in it so quickly. But even this brief experience should not be undervalued: you have taken the first step, a very important step, although the journey is long—indeed, it is a lifetime job...

...A seed of Dhamma has been sown
In part of the instructions of a ten-day course, Goenkaji says "this is the kindergarten of Dhamma". And as can be seen from above, SN Goenka doesn't claim that what he teaches, in a ten-day course, is anything but an unequivocal introduction. That point would have been clear to you had you ever done a ten-day course.
Hi Ben

No I admit to not having done a 10 day or longer Goenka course, nor have I ever felt the need to. My experience is based on teaching vipassana (non-Goenka) to students and see them gradually develop along the vipassana nanas. Mr.Goenka does seem to say that the 10 day course is introductory from your above quotes. But I ask you- does he teach anything other than the Body scan even in his 'advanced' satipatthana courses?

with metta

Matheesha
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rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Post by rowyourboat »

Matheesha, we have known each other a number of years both here and formerly at E-Sangha. During that time, I have noted your simmering aversion to SN Goenka and yet your criticisms of his, or more correctly U Ba Khin's, method is based on ignorance. Its not a very strong position in which to criticise another teacher and it only highlights your own inadequacies.

BTW, Ledi Sayadaw's Vipassana Dipani - it isn't exactly a meditation manual.
I have tried my best to find a 'manual of vipassana' from Ledi Sayadaw, U Ba Khin, or Goenka which outlines the development of the insight knowledges in line with how they unfold -and I have failed.

If you find one please let me know.

with equanimity

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
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