something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanghamitta wrote:Ah but Tilt would your stance remain unchanged of you went ahead and ordered the books...and then didn't read them ?
Or if you didn't order the books...but read them ?
Or both ordered and then cancelled them ?
Or didn't order or cancel or read them ?

We must leave no semantic stone unturned in the relentless search for Enlightenment.
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

:clap:
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

Ñāṇa wrote:Moreover, the individuation of phenomena requires apperceptive memory recognition (saññā) and conceptual designation (paññatti) for differentiation. All such individuation is fabricated, relational, and conventional, and therefore phenomena cannot be established as ultimately existent.
this doesnt do anything to address that prior to being conceptually designated, the thing is still the thing. if the thing werent a thing, there would be a lack of the thing (nihilism) in which case it would be senseless to say it could be the focus of conceptual designation.
Noa Ronkin, Early Buddhist Metaphysics: The Making of a Philosophical Tradition (p. 247):

“Neither conceptualizing, nor conceptualizing wrongly, nor lacking conceptualization, nor conceptualizing nothing – in one who has achieved this state sensory recognizable experience (rupa) ceases, for what is called ‘verbal proliferation’ (papañca) has its origin in conceptualization.”
i am going to have check out these books youre mentioning

but i prefer to talk about what seems to be the more commonly accepted position, which is that things are marked by findable characteristic natures. this way, moments exist regardless of conceptualization.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote: but i prefer to talk about what seems to be the more commonly accepted position, .
Whose?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:but i prefer to talk about what seems to be the more commonly accepted position, .
Whose?
the ppl in this thread (there are more who accept real momentariness than those who do not)

where did they get their info from? dont really care at the moment, im more interested in working through the ideas than parroting text
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:but i prefer to talk about what seems to be the more commonly accepted position, .
Whose?
the ppl in this thread (there are more who accept real momentariness than those who do not)
An nice example of an informal logical fallacy.
where did they get their info from? dont really care at the moment, im more interested in working through the ideas than parroting text
But who knows where your ideas come from, where they are grounded?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:An nice example of an informal logical fallacy.
i didnt use it as a proof for something else, i just stated the fact
But who knows where your ideas come from, where they are grounded?
my logic comes from kamma. if objects themselves cant maintain their characteristic natures as they are undergoing change then you cant say that objects change

you seem to want to wriggle your way out of this by suggesting that Buddha never spoke of objects themselves, but rather just about our designations of objects. or worse (ie. there are no external objects at all, there are only designations of objects)
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:An nice example of an informal logical fallacy.
i didnt use it as a proof for something else, i just stated the fact
Okay, a fact that carries no weight.
But who knows where your ideas come from, where they are grounded?
my logic comes from kamma. if objects themselves cant maintain their characteristic natures as they are undergoing change then you cant say that objects change[/quote]Who knows what school of Buddhism you are referring to?
you seem to want to wriggle your way out of this by suggesting that Buddha never spoke of objects themselves, but rather just about our designations of objects. or worse (ie. there are no external objects at all, there are only designations of objects)
I would suggest you go back and carefully reread what was written above by me and Ñāṇa.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

Just read this in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajala Sutta:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ym-vC ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are "beyond the sphere of reasoning" because the objective domain of the uttermost knowledge cannot be encompassed by reasoning.
Is this bad philosophy or genuine wisdom? :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

Individual wrote:Just read this in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajala Sutta:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ym-vC ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are "beyond the sphere of reasoning" because the objective domain of the uttermost knowledge cannot be encompassed by reasoning.
Is this bad philosophy or genuine wisdom? :)
Hard to tell, since we do not know what "they" is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Moreover, the individuation of phenomena requires apperceptive memory recognition (saññā) and conceptual designation (paññatti) for differentiation. All such individuation is fabricated, relational, and conventional, and therefore phenomena cannot be established as ultimately existent.
this doesnt do anything to address that prior to being conceptually designated, the thing is still the thing. if the thing werent a thing, there would be a lack of the thing (nihilism) in which case it would be senseless to say it could be the focus of conceptual designation.
I've never denied the appearance of phenomena.
5heaps wrote:but i prefer to talk about what seems to be the more commonly accepted position, which is that things are marked by findable characteristic natures. this way, moments exist regardless of conceptualization.
Which position would that be? More specifically, which theory of radical momentariness do you accept? The Vaibhāṣika-Sarvāstivāda version? The Sautrāntika-Sarvāstivāda version? The Theravāda version? And which author within your chosen vāda? Because even within any particular vāda there are significant disagreements. For example, if your choice is the Theravāda version, then which Theravāda version do you accept? Ācariya Ānanda’s version? Ācariya Anuruddha’s version? Ācariya Sumaṅgala’s version?
5heaps wrote:this way, moments exist regardless of conceptualization.
Sorry, but no Theravāda commentator would agree that "moments exist."
5heaps wrote:the thing which is impermanent is the thing which is momentary (maintains its characteristic nature as it is undergoing subtlest change). for us its simple -- impermanent thing, momentary thing, conditioned thing and functioning thing are all equivalent.
And how are you going to establish the objective validity your momentary thing "that maintains its characteristic nature as it is undergoing subtlest change"? If you rely on any criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) based on deluded worldly cognitions, then all you will ever "prove" is that deluded worldly cognitions are deluded. Not a valid source for establishing the unerring validity of any supposed objective truth-claims. Sn 3.12 Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:
  • Entrenched in name and form,
    They conceive that “This is true.”

    In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
    It turns out other than that.
    For that is what is false about it.
    Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.
If, on the other hand, you attempt to employ any criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) in order to try to establish liberated cognitons, then you will also be at a loss because there are no means of measurement which can be used as reference points to validate a measureless cognition (appamāṇacetasa). SN 6.7 (S i 148) Kokālika Sutta:
  • What wise man here would seek to define
    A measureless one by taking his measure?
    He who would measure a measureless one
    Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.
Better to practice satipaṭṭhāna and begin to relinquish notions of objective truth-claims about theories of radical momentariness.

All the best,

Geoff
Individual
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote:Just read this in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajala Sutta:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ym-vC ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are "beyond the sphere of reasoning" because the objective domain of the uttermost knowledge cannot be encompassed by reasoning.
Is this bad philosophy or genuine wisdom? :)
Hard to tell, since we do not know what "they" is.
He's commenting on the Brahmajala sutta:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/theravada/brahma1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Besides morality there are other dhammas1which are profound, hard to see, hard to comprehend, tranquil, noble, surpassing logic...
The problem one might have with Nanavira Thera's statements (based on that one quote -- don't know the whole argument) is that he presents insight wisdom as a refutation of logic. But if insight wisdom is a refutation of logic, on what basis does he or anyone have in using it?

The dhammas taught by the Buddha are not something that refute logic, but surpass it and elucidate it.

Of course this might just be misunderstanding Nanavira Thera by taking his words out of context. What he's saying is probably not meant to be good or bad philosophy; it is meant to surpass philosophy. It cannot be understood by a mind grasping wrongly at concepts. He points out that logic is without foundation; it is built upon impermanent dhammas, while insight is not built upon a shaky foundation.

With this context, let me repeat Bhikkhu Bodhi's quote again:

"the objective domain of the uttermost knowledge cannot be encompassed by reasoning."

(Actually that's not even Bhikkhu Bodhi, is it? That's just his translation from the early Theravada commentaries?)

It's on pages 121 through 123:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6ym-vC4nTsAC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Prasadachitta
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Individual,
But if insight wisdom is a refutation of logic, on what basis does he or anyone have in using it?
Im just curious. Is the phrase "refutation of logic" kind of a paradox or maybe an oxymoron? Would a process of refuting necessarily involve the application of logic? At least when one is speaking abstractly I would think refutation requires logic.


Not a big deal.

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Individual
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Individual »

gabrielbranbury wrote:Hi Individual,
But if insight wisdom is a refutation of logic, on what basis does he or anyone have in using it?
Im just curious. Is the phrase "refutation of logic" kind of a paradox or maybe an oxymoron? Would a process of refuting necessarily involve the application of logic? At least when one is speaking abstractly I would think refutation requires logic.


Not a big deal.

Gabe
Why you asking me? What could I possibly say? :)

You use logic. Why not just think about it -- in a much deeper way than you might presently? It's not a big deal is right. Just be mindful and investigate what logic is when you use it. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Prasadachitta »

Individual wrote:Why you asking me? What could I possibly say? :)

You use logic. Why not just think about it -- in a much deeper way than you might presently? It's not a big deal is right. Just be mindful and investigate what logic is when you use it. :)

Who knows what you might say. Who knows what anyone might say. Im just wondering what it means to "refute logic". You used the phrase. I was curious what you meant, so I asked you.

Nothing lost nothing gained


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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