the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.

Am I telling you to accept it?


Have I ever said that you must accept it?
You immediately jumped into a post I sent to Tex and proceeded to explain how what I posted should be understood according to "your" view. How am I to take this other than proselytizing? There is no middle way with your interpretation, its either craigs way or the highway.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:19 pm

clw_uk wrote:
. Whether we like it or not the question of what happens after death is an issue that the Buddha addressed.
Not so. He started with the problem off dukkha. With his practice he realized that dukkha arises when there is clinging, which leads to birth of "I am" and also leads to all the myriad of views that arise in the world, be it God or rebirth, no rebirth, soul etc
You keep saying stuff like that but for the Buddha, rebirth was not a view. It is how the world functions, which makes all the "view" quotes beside the point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:22 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.

Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
The point has reperatedly, clearly made, texts have been quoted, etc. You are simply making the point that even the clearest teachings can be badly grasped.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:28 pm

Aloka wrote:.

Hi Tilt,

As your knowledge of the suttas is more extensive than mine, could you tell me what this means, please?

So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn in hell. For what reason? Because bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?" The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

SN 56.121 (Bodhi translation)
Here is a perfect example of a text that shows that if the anti-rebirthist claim is correct, then the Buddha was a clumsy, inept teacher. Thanks for quoting it. As for what it means, I would take it at face value.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Tilt,

How can animals understand the Four Noble Truths? For me it doesn't show that that the Buddha was an inept teacher - - doesn't it mean in this particular context that the animal realm is a mental state?

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:43 pm

clw_uk wrote:
If there was one life only, there wouldn't be such a need for practice. Parinibbana would be guaranteed for all (and there would be a super quick shortcut to it), so why practice?

Which is a speculative view of yours that has arisen because of clinging


"If there is no rebirth then there is nothing so ....." and so on


We have also been over the fact that wanting to get rid of dukkha is dukkha

That has nothing to do with speculative views. It is what follows from the assumption of 1 life only.


If parinibbana is guaranteed, then why practice for it?


Now please answer that question.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:52 pm

Aloka wrote:Hi Tilt,

How can animals understand the Four Noble Truths? For me it doesn't show that that the Buddha was an inept teacher - - doesn't it mean in this particular context that the animal realm is a mental state?

.
Which is why pan-Buddhist a human birth is considered so precious and once lost it is hard to regain.
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Again, to insist that these texts must be crammed into a figurative only reading is to make the Buddha intro a clumsy, inept teacher.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

notself
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by notself » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:57 pm

What is reborn? I can't find it discussed anywhere in the suttas. Help me.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:11 pm

notself wrote:What is reborn? I can't find it discussed anywhere in the suttas. Help me.

IMHO what is reborn is cause-effect stream of cittas with "I, me, mine" making, and the latent tendencies.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Again, to insist that these texts must be crammed into a figurative only reading is to make the Buddha intro a clumsy, inept teacher.
I'm not insisting anything, Tilt. I'm wondering if perhaps there are mundane and supramundane teachings (or as expressed in Vajrayana, teachings on a relative and ultimate level)

From the Manorathapūranī:
The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.
(Mn. i. 95)


I've got the Pali for that somewhere too - but as I don't understand Pali I'm just quoting the English.

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:27 pm

Hello Aloka,

Neither "mundane" nor "supramundane" teaching, neither "conventional" nor "ultimate" teaching rejects the teaching of rebirth.

The "ultimate" teaching is just more precise and talks in terms of mental & physical events, while conventional teaching uses ordinary words (such as this person was reborn as a frog, etc etc). In both cases they refer to cittas, cetasika and rūpa.


While mundane teaching is often aimed at showing the path to better rebirth, the supramundane teaching is aimed at stopping rebirth all together.


So in all cases existence of rebirth is accepted.

With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Hi Alex,

Alex 123 wrote:
So in all cases existence of rebirth is accepted.
But this may not be intended strictly in a post mortem sense but could be the way that Ajahn Sumedho speaks of it in 'The Mind and the Way'.
You can see rebirth directly; you don’t have to believe in a theory of rebirth. Rebirth is something that occurs in what you are doing all the time. Now, since there is no self, there is nothing to be reborn as a personal essence or soul, carrying through from one lifetime to the next. However, desire is being reborn; it is constantly looking for something to absorb into or something to become.

If you are unhappy and depressed, you look for something that you can absorb into that will give you some happy feeling, or at least get you away from the unpleasantness of the moment. That’s rebirth.

Metta,

Aloka _/\_

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Hello Aloka,
Aloka wrote:Hi Alex,
But this may not be in a post mortem sense but could be the way that Ajahn Sumedho speaks of it in 'The Mind and the Way'.
The suttas are clear that the end of this body is not the end of cause-effect stream of cittas until arhatship.

There are many suttas that do talk about what is called 'literal rebirth' with phrases such as "at the breakup of the body, after death,".

Read MN129 and MN130.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ita-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Especially take note of
I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uta-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So all the talk about "Buddha borrowing elements of Hindu society he lived in" are refuted by that one sentence. What He has taught was what he himself has " ...known and seen... ".


With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:10 pm

But this may not be intended strictly in a post mortem sense but could be the way that Ajahn Sumedho speaks of it in 'The Mind and the Way'.

You can see rebirth directly; you don’t have to believe in a theory of rebirth.


Hi Aloka

Ajahn Sumedho doesn't always speak of rebirth strictly in the above manner either...
We must be reborn again and again until we do resolve our kamma. We don't know how many lifetimes we have had so far, but here we are in this incarnation, with our own particular character and kammic tendencies.


http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/215/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

5heaps
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by 5heaps » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:32 pm

clw_uk wrote:
thats offtopic. rebirth doesnt refer to just birth of i, it refers to other specific events (ie. the generation of consciousness due to the final moment of consciousness in this life)
No that was a later idea. If Im right it came from Vasubandhu

It was an attempt to try and cram Buddhadhamma into a speculative metaphysical view
completely ridiculous. there are very many instances where the Buddha talks about rebirth in various circumstances ie. from a womb, through the power of 'emanation' (ie. gods). many instances where the Buddha talks about the supporting conditions of such occurrences. even many instances of giving examples of people who have undergone such occurrences.

im getting quite tired of inept people dissing the historical giants of buddhism. get some class.
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