the great rebirth debate

[Spiny O'Norman]

If there was one life only, there wouldn't be such a need for practice.

I feel a greater sense of urgency about practice when I assume there is only 1 life. For me the goal of liberation from suffering is worth striving for whatever the timescale involved.

Spiny

[Aloka]

Alex 123 wrote

IMHO, it gives more motivation to get out of Samsara when one believes that problems are not limited to this life. It also gives more motivation to do good and avoid bad.

If you believe you're going to be a different person in another life with no knowledge of this one, it still makes sense to practising diligently in the present moment without pointless speculation about other lifetimes....and indeed from what you have said about your own position, it could be interpreted by some as the lazy option of "Oh well there's always other lives if I don't get it right in this one." It seems im my opinion that practising like there's no tomorrow after this life, is a lot more sensible .


.

[Phra Chuntawongso]

If there was one life only, there wouldn't be such a need for practice.

I feel a greater sense of urgency about practice when I assume there is only 1 life. For me the goal of liberation from suffering is worth striving for whatever the timescale involved.

Spiny

Hi Spiny.I think the point that Alex123 is trying to make here is that if there is no rebirth(or heaven or hell)the need for practice would not arise for a lot more people than there is now.If we die and that is that then we could all go on living what may be for many a fairly good life.
I used to work 4-5 months a year,outside,in the summertime.After this I would head off to Thailand for a 7-8 months break.
I really enjoyed my time while I was there.Great food,cheap bear etc.
If it wasn't because of what I have learned through the study of suttas and my meditation practice I would still be doing all of those things.I really did not see myself as suffering too much,especially when I observed others who had to work 50 weeks a year just to make ends meet.
The fact that I am already seeing so much truth in what Lord Buddha taught,through things like the Four Noble Truths that I am prepared to put away any doubts that I may have had about rebirth in the beginning of my practice and see how this may actually be logical.I also believe that stuff that comes up in our lives now can be seen as glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined.
With metta

[5heaps]

Birth of "I" is the the result of ignorance based contact

thats offtopic. rebirth doesnt refer to just birth of i, it refers to other specific events (ie. the generation of consciousness due to the final moment of consciousness in this life)

Views about past or future arise via clinging

no, as you quoted, "This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge".

not all views are negative, otherwise even right view would be negative

[Ceisiwr]

Hi Spiny.I think the point that Alex123 is trying to make here is that if there is no rebirth(or heaven or hell)the need for practice would not arise for a lot more people than there is now.If we die and that is that then we could all go on living what may be for many a fairly good life.

Hello Bhante


Sure it can spur people onto the path. However the Buddhas teachings are about the reality of dukkha. Putting aside rebirth or not there is dukkha here and now, the quenching of which the Buddha offers

Why suffer even a little bit when you can be free from all of it?


metta

[Aloka]

glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined

.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka

[Ceisiwr]

5heaps -thats offtopic. rebirth doesnt refer to just birth of i, it refers to other specific events (ie. the generation of consciousness due to the final moment of consciousness in this life)

No that was a later idea. If Im right it came from Vasubandhu

It was an attempt to try and cram Buddhadhamma into a speculative metaphysical view

Craig - Views about past or future arise via clinging

5heaps - no, as you quoted, "This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge".

not all views are negative, otherwise even right view would be negative

Noble Right View results from insight into dukkha and letting go. Its based on non-clinging. Sepculative Views arise via clinging, such as "I am the body, when that goes "I" go and there is nothing"

As I said, Noble Right View non-clinging. It leads out not further into dukkha


"Ananda, a bhikkhu develops right view view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release"


Hence the Buddha-way leads out of all dukkha. Out of all I-making and views

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[bodom]

If I die in my sleep tonight, and I'm not even a sotapanna much less an arahant, what happens to "my" (so to speak) kamma that has not ripened yet? If it does not condition another existence, what does it do?

Hi Tex

Kamma will produce rebirth.

Venerable Ananda approaches the Master and says, "'Existence, existence' is spoken of, venerable sir. In what way is there existence?" The Buddha replies: "If there were no kamma ripening in the sensory realm, no sense-sphere existence would be discerned. If there where no kamma ripening in the form realm, no form-sphere existence would be discerned. If there were no kamma ripening in the formless realm, no formless-sphere existence would be discerned. Therefore, Ananda, kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture for beings obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving to be established in a new realm of existence, either low (sense-sphere), middling (form-sphere), or high (formless-sphere)." - (AN 3.76)

[Ceisiwr]

Kamma will produce rebirth.

Birth of "I" yes, remember Kamma is just intentional action


Intention arises at contact. If this is ignorant contact then it will lead to birth of "I" in a mental state and will lead to dukkha

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Hi Spiny.I think the point that Alex123 is trying to make here is that if there is no rebirth(or heaven or hell)the need for practice would not arise for a lot more people than there is now.If we die and that is that then we could all go on living what may be for many a fairly good life.

Hello Bhante


Sure it can spur people onto the path. However the Buddhas teachings are about the reality of dukkha. Putting aside rebirth or not there is dukkha here and now, the quenching of which the Buddha offers

Why suffer even a little bit when you can be free from all of it?


metta

The problem is that many people don't see that they are suffering.Yes they may say that they are not having a good day or a good week but don't see that this is suffering.Not in the sense that we do.
I agree the Buddha does teach we can be free from it all,and yes we can do it in this life,but you try telling someone having a great time(by their understanding)that it is suffering.
You only have to read some of the posts that people put up on forums like this.They want to know what the heck we are talking about when we say having a loving,stable relationship,with 1.8 kids(stats throw up funny stuff)2 SUV's and a 4 bedroom house with a white picket fence around it is suffering.
You know what Lord Buddha meant when he spoke about suffering,but others don't.
They just think were a miserable lot.If I tell some of these people that their partner could die,meet some one new and run off with them,that their children may not want to go to college and get a career they think I'm just a grumpy old man(I'm not really)and projecting problems were they don't exist.
With metta

[bodom]

Kamma will produce rebirth.

Birth of "I" yes, remember Kamma is just intentional action


Intention arises at contact. If this is ignorant contact then it will lead to birth of "I" in a mental state and will lead to dukkha

Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.

[Ceisiwr]

The problem is that many people don't see that they are suffering.Yes they may say that they are not having a good day or a good week but don't see that this is suffering.Not in the sense that we do.

Its because they are ignorant of it. Actually you find they are not ignorant of dukkha but what dukkha is

I agree the Buddha does teach we can be free from it all,and yes we can do it in this life,but you try telling someone having a great time(by their understanding)that it is suffering.
You only have to read some of the posts that people put up on forums like this.They want to know what the heck we are talking about when we say having a loving,stable relationship,with 1.8 kids(stats throw up funny stuff)2 SUV's and a 4 bedroom house with a white picket fence around it is suffering.

"If change or alteration would occur in your kids, would that not bring you stress, suffering and despair?"

That is how you teach them of dukkha in relation to family, possesions etc

You know what Lord Buddha meant when he spoke about suffering,but others don't.
They just think were a miserable lot.If I tell some of these people that their partner could die,meet some one new and run off with them,that their children may not want to go to college and get a career they think I'm just a grumpy old man(I'm not really)and projecting problems were they don't exist.

Then thats their misunderstanding. People can only state the Dhamma, if others dont want to listen they wont. Not everyone listened to the Buddha when he was around and he was a great teacher

Dandapani ("Stick-in-hand") the Sakyan, out roaming & rambling for exercise, also went to the Great Wood. Plunging into the Great Wood, he went to where the Blessed One was under the bilva sapling. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he stood to one side. As he was standing there, he said to the Blessed One, "What is the contemplative's doctrine? What does he proclaim?"

"The sort of doctrine, friend, where one does not keep quarreling with anyone in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk; the sort [of doctrine] where perceptions no longer obsess the brahman who remains dissociated from sensuality, free from perplexity, his uncertainty cut away, devoid of craving for becoming & non-. Such is my doctrine, such is what I proclaim."

When this was said, Dandapani the Sakyan — shaking his head, wagging his tongue, raising his eyebrows so that his forehead was wrinkled in three furrows — left, leaning on his stick.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta bhante

[Ceisiwr]

Craig you can type and copy and paste suttas until your fingers fall off. I do not agree with your view on rebirth. People interpret this topic differently and that is ok. You are free to give your view as am I. I suggest you let others interpret and practice the Dhamma how they feel comfortable doing so without insisting on your 'view' as being the one and only correct interpretation.

Am I telling you to accept it?


Have I ever said that you must accept it?

[Phra Chuntawongso]

glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined

.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka

Absolutely.I agree that you may view them as mental states.This is how I started out.
All I ask is that people don't dismiss out of hand the literal meanings as well.Putting things to one side is often the wisest thing you could do.In fact Buddha advocates such things.We all know that we were not told to believe blindy but to come and see.This is the beauty of buddhism.We are invited and encouraged to question every thing.If at the moment the whole idea of literal rebirth does not sit well for you,I would say set it to one side and continue with your practice.To wrestle with it will only cause confusion and frustration.Not easy to practice in this state of mind.
We all start somewhere.How we get from point A to point B is up to the individual.
I used to be mad on VW camper vans.Anything up to about the 1972 models.I had mates that used to laugh at me because they were never the fastest vehicle on the planet(unless you chucked a porsche engine under one) but as I told them,I always got to where I wanted to go,it just took me a little longer.
With metta

[Aloka]

glimpses of other realms.
These glimpses are enough to make my practice more determined

.

Dear Bhante,

I interpret other realms as different mental states and have discussed this with teachers who have said its ok to do that.

Kind regards,

Aloka

Absolutely.I agree that you may view them as mental states.This is how I started out.
All I ask is that people don't dismiss out of hand the literal meanings as well.Putting things to one side is often the wisest thing you could do.In fact Buddha advocates such things.We all know that we were not told to believe blindy but to come and see.This is the beauty of buddhism.We are invited and encouraged to question every thing.If at the moment the whole idea of literal rebirth does not sit well for you,I would say set it to one side and continue with your practice.To wrestle with it will only cause confusion and frustration.Not easy to practice in this state of mind.
We all start somewhere.How we get from point A to point B is up to the individual.
I used to be mad on VW camper vans.Anything up to about the 1972 models.I had mates that used to laugh at me because they were never the fastest vehicle on the planet(unless you chucked a porsche engine under one) but as I told them,I always got to where I wanted to go,it just took me a little longer.
With metta

Thank you for your kind reply, Bhante .

With metta,

Aloka