Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

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Sanghamitta
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Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta »

[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Kenshou »

Sanghamitta wrote:I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation. But this is not the place for that discussion.
At risk of derailing the thread, I would be interested in knowing the grounds for that idea. I've seen it around now and then but never with any sources (not to imply that you don't have any). I'm simply curious, is all. Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by BlackBird »

Kenshou wrote:Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.
Very good idea :)
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

And now we have it.

:geek:

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Retro. :)
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by BlackBird »

Sanghamitta wrote:As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
So if Ariyas are out, does that mean the characteristics that define them - stream entry, once returner, non-returner and arahant are also out?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

And further to Jack's question, is this to suggest that records of the Buddha labelling himself "the arahant" are fabricated? Did he in fact find the path to, and achieve the cessation of dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Individual »

According to Sanghamitta, this is a discussion that doesn't belong here. If that's true, I guess it's OK to give an opinion that doesn't belong here.

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Ben
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Ben »

Sanghamitta wrote: I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
Hi Valerie

What an interesting thought! I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter with supporting documentary evidence.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Sanghamitta wrote:[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:
That is quite a claim to make. May I ask the basis for the notion that "that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives"? For example, philological analysis of which texts? Source of the insertion (from non-Buddhist thought, etc.)?
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta »

I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

Sanghamitta wrote:I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
Perhaps you could let us know the context in which it was stated and we can take it from there.
I do not believe that any sleight of hand or dishonesty would be the intention here.
So come on gives us the context and who knows this could turn out to be a great discussion here. :coffee:
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Kenshou »

Sanghamitta-

On one hand, I do not see how this question is dependent on the context of the other thread, since they're pretty unrelated things. I think it's a valid topic in of itself.

On the other hand, sorry if I indirectly lead to an annoyance for you, I did intend to wait for a reply in the other thread before doing anything myself, but what's done is done.
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta »

You posed it. You answer it.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Kenshou
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Kenshou »

What?
Sanghamitta
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Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Someone other than me posed this as a new thread. UNDER MY NAME... Someone other than me can address it.
Or ignore it. :shrug:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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