[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]
As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.
Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
At risk of derailing the thread, I would be interested in knowing the grounds for that idea. I've seen it around now and then but never with any sources (not to imply that you don't have any). I'm simply curious, is all. Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.Sanghamitta wrote:I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation. But this is not the place for that discussion.
Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Very good ideaKenshou wrote:Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
And now we have it.
Metta,
Retro.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
So if Ariyas are out, does that mean the characteristics that define them - stream entry, once returner, non-returner and arahant are also out?Sanghamitta wrote:As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
Greetings,
And further to Jack's question, is this to suggest that records of the Buddha labelling himself "the arahant" are fabricated? Did he in fact find the path to, and achieve the cessation of dukkha?
Metta,
Retro.
And further to Jack's question, is this to suggest that records of the Buddha labelling himself "the arahant" are fabricated? Did he in fact find the path to, and achieve the cessation of dukkha?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
-
- Posts: 1970
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
According to Sanghamitta, this is a discussion that doesn't belong here. If that's true, I guess it's OK to give an opinion that doesn't belong here.
http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamo ... html#div-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamo ... html#div-7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is neither a teaching nor a non-teaching. How can this be? All the enlightened sages are distinguished [from worldly teachers] by unconditioned phenomena.
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
Hi ValerieSanghamitta wrote: I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
What an interesting thought! I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter with supporting documentary evidence.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
- Contact:
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
That is quite a claim to make. May I ask the basis for the notion that "that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives"? For example, philological analysis of which texts? Source of the insertion (from non-Buddhist thought, etc.)?Sanghamitta wrote:[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Thanks. Retro.]
As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
- Phra Chuntawongso
- Posts: 274
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
- Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai
- Contact:
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
Perhaps you could let us know the context in which it was stated and we can take it from there.Sanghamitta wrote:I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
I do not believe that any sleight of hand or dishonesty would be the intention here.
So come on gives us the context and who knows this could turn out to be a great discussion here.
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
Sanghamitta-
On one hand, I do not see how this question is dependent on the context of the other thread, since they're pretty unrelated things. I think it's a valid topic in of itself.
On the other hand, sorry if I indirectly lead to an annoyance for you, I did intend to wait for a reply in the other thread before doing anything myself, but what's done is done.
On one hand, I do not see how this question is dependent on the context of the other thread, since they're pretty unrelated things. I think it's a valid topic in of itself.
On the other hand, sorry if I indirectly lead to an annoyance for you, I did intend to wait for a reply in the other thread before doing anything myself, but what's done is done.
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
You posed it. You answer it.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?
Someone other than me posed this as a new thread. UNDER MY NAME... Someone other than me can address it.
Or ignore it.
Or ignore it.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.