mindfulness: natural born activity?

[Spiny O'Norman]

Right. But, I was wondering what Beeblebrox meant by making a distinction between 'regular mindfulness' and 'right mindfulness' . Mindfulness of body, feelings, mind, mental objects is really just the same in secular mindfulness programs as in Buddhist meditation?

Interesting question. Perhaps the purpose of developing mindfulness is different. So in a Buddhist context mindfulness is a basis for insight, whereas in programs like MBSR mindfulness is a basis for stress reduction?

Spiny

[Shonin]

Right. But, I was wondering what Beeblebrox meant by making a distinction between 'regular mindfulness' and 'right mindfulness' . Mindfulness of body, feelings, mind, mental objects is really just the same in secular mindfulness programs as in Buddhist meditation?

Interesting question. Perhaps the purpose of developing mindfulness is different. So in a Buddhist context mindfulness is a basis for insight, whereas in programs like MBSR mindfulness is a basis for stress reduction?

We can 'intend' all we like. But what insight arises from the practice, arises from the actual practice that we are doing - which in both cases is essentially the same as far as I'm aware.

In MBSR and MBCT, stress is reduced, depression averted etc in large part due to the insight that arises (whether expressed in exactly Buddhist terms or not). Unless the practice is different why should we expect the insight to be any less or different?

I take it you're not implying that people practicing Buddhist mindfulness sit and 'try to have insights', 'try to experience nibbana' etc and that people doing mindfulness meditation in MBSR sit and 'try to have less stress'? If they did, then it's not really mindfulness. The only intention that I'm aware of in mindfulness meditation is the intention to pay attention to one's experiences in a non-reactive manner.

[beeblebrox]

There's regular mindfulness, which I think anyone is capable of doing to some degree... this skill of course can be very helpful in keeping yourself focused, within an ordinary life and stuff like that.

Then there's sammā sati, "right mindfulness." This is a certain type of mindfulness that is aligned with Dhamma. It is nibbāna-oriented. It is centered in meditation, along with the removal of greed, hatred, and delusion, etc.

Perhaps by the former, he was referring to some kind of concentration focussing techniques for sport and so on?

Yes, that is something like what I meant. When I said "nibbāna-oriented" I don't mean you try to bring that "state" around with the mindfulness... just that you've set your goal to nibbāna, to get to the other shore. Your mindfulness is inclined (or oriented) in that direction.

You do this by investigating the Buddha's Dhamma; trying to understand what it means; studying which states might be conductive to this practice, and then cultivate those; perform meditation practices so that you'll be settled enough to do that; etc. You remember to do that through mindfulness.

The regular mindfulness is still rooted in this world (and also maybe to other worlds, i.e., deva-worlds). It's also based on a self. It isn't the "nibbāna" or the unbinding type of mindfulness. It also might be based on the wrong motivation, e.g., a sniper also uses regular mindfulness... which however highly developed that might be (even to the point of it being like a diamond), will not lead to the nibbāna.

Just stuff like that. Also, just in case you misunderstood this... when I say "right mindfulness," I don't mean to imply that the other kind is wrong. It has nothing to do with the truth or the falsity. It's just proper orientation.

[Shonin]

Yes, that is something like what I meant. When I said "nibbāna-oriented" I don't mean you try to bring that "state" around with the mindfulness... just that you've set your goal to nibbāna, to get to the other shore. Your mindfulness is inclined (or oriented) in that direction.

One of the fundamental points of mindful awareness meditation as used in MBSR and MBCT and I assume insight meditation/ satipatthana where there techniques come from is that the practice itself is not goal oriented. We're paying attention to what we are actually experiencing right now rather than trying to change our experience or even move it in any particular direction.

You do this by investigating the Buddha's Dhamma; trying to understand what it means; studying which states might be conductive to this practice, and then cultivate those; perform meditation practices so that you'll be settled enough to do that; etc. You remember to do that through mindfulness.

Ah, but this is a different meaning of mindfulness from what I'm talking about and what the OP was about. Reminding oneself how wonderfully tranquil Nibbana must be (for example) is quite different from mindful awareness.

The regular mindfulness is still rooted in this world (and also maybe to other worlds, i.e., deva-worlds). It's also based on a self. It isn't the "nibbāna" or the unbinding type of mindfulness. It also might be based on the wrong motivation, e.g., a sniper also uses regular mindfulness... which however highly developed that might be (even to the point of it being like a diamond), will not lead to the nibbāna.

I think that if you believe that a Buddhist practicing mindfulness in order to get to Nibbana is not rooted in the world and not based on self then you are kidding yourself. I don't think there's a justification for a clear division between 'worldly' and 'Buddhist' mindfulness on that basis. It comes across just as a value judgement. However, there is a real difference between the practice of mindful awareness and concentration and I agree that concentration by itself probably doesn't lead to 'unbinding'.

Just stuff like that. Also, just in case you misunderstood this... when I say "right mindfulness," I don't mean to imply that the other kind is wrong. It has nothing to do with the truth or the falsity. It's just proper orientation.

You mean 'proper' as opposed to 'improper'? Sounds like another value judgement.

[beeblebrox]

For some reason you seem to insist on reading all my posts in just the wrong way. In this thread, and that another thread about earthquakes.

Whatever you've said above is none of the implications I've been making. I never said that you should imagine nibbāna as something. It's a cessation of dukkha. You don't imagine what that cessation is like... you just use that as a benchmark to compare your own current experience against. When they align, then there you are... Nibbāna.

So, the mindfulness is not based on a goal? What are you being mindful for? Seems fuzzy to me.

I'm not trying to do any value judgments here... just trying to show that there are things that are oriented towards the Dhamma practice, and things that aren't. It's that simple.

[Shonin]

For some reason you seem to insist on reading all my posts in just the wrong way. In this thread, and that another thread about earthquakes.

It happens

Whatever you've said above is none of the implications I've been making. I never said that you should imagine nibbāna as something. It's a cessation of dukkha. You don't imagine what that cessation is like... you just use that as a benchmark to compare your own current experience against. When they align, then there you are... Nibbāna.

OK, but this is not the practice of mindful awareness.

So, the mindfulness is not based on a goal? What are you being mindful for? Seems fuzzy to me.

There may be over-arching goals that form the basis for decisions such as practicing mindfulness (presumably there must be), however the actual practice of mindful awareness is not a goal-oriented practice. It is a radically different mode of simply attending to how things actually are. It's a 'being' or 'non-doing' rather than a 'doing'. The usual comparisons between our cognition of where we are and our ideal that we are tring to reach and the associated trying, judgement and so forth, are dropped.

I'm not trying to do any value judgments here... just trying to show that there are things that are oriented towards the Dhamma practice, and things that aren't. It's that simple.

OK. Some things lead to insight, unbinding and less suffering and some things don't, but I don't believe practices are simply and neatly divided into worldly/limited/self-centred or insight/unbinding/selfless according to whether it is a 'Buddhist' practice or not, in the way that you seem to be suggesting.

[beeblebrox]

The usual comparisons between our cognition of where we are and our ideal that we are tring to reach and the associated trying, judgement and so forth, are dropped.

This is included in the "nibbāna-oriented" mindfulness. I don't know if you've noticed this, but every instance of the "right mindfulness" mentioned by me (in this thread) have been surrounded by scare-quotes.

[Shonin]

The usual comparisons between our cognition of where we are and our ideal that we are tring to reach and the associated trying, judgement and so forth, are dropped.

This is included in the "nibbāna-oriented" mindfulness.

OK. If that is what you mean then I agree. However this is true for so-called secular mindfulness as well as so-called Buddhist mindfulness practice, and (although I would never put it in quite that way in a secular context) surely the main reason why these practices reduce stress, depression etc.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but every instance of the "right mindfulness" mentioned by me (in this thread) have been surrounded by scare-quotes.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Individual]

But what does that mean?

Do you mean sitting and thinking about these? Do you mean taking extra care to notice them? How does one be mindful of nibbana when one has never experienced it? Remembering that they exist? I don't think that this is the sort of mindful awareness that we're talking about here.

Bruce Lee:

Don't think. Feeeeeeel.

It is like a finger pointing away to da moon. Don't concentrate on da finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.

[beeblebrox]

Here are some quotes from the Satipatthana Sutta (Establishment of Mindfulness):

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)

This is in line with being mindful about greed, hatred, and delusion... and their abandoning.

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the seven factors for Awakening? There is the case where, there being mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is present within me.' Or, there being no mindfulness as a factor for Awakening present within, he discerns that 'Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is not present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen mindfulness as a factor for Awakening. And he discerns how there is the culmination of the development of mindfulness as a factor for Awakening once it has arisen. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining factors for Awakening: analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, & equanimity.)

How do you discern the "Mindfulness as a factor for Awakening is not present within me," if you were not mindful in the first place?

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the four noble truths? There is the case where he discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.'

"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."

[Freawaru]

Hi Delora,

hi there,

I have been reading a lot around mindfulness.. many websites, etc. And mindfulness is almost presented as if it is a new thing, something we are not naturally accustomed to? Just a few questions to clarify my understanding..

1. Am I right in thinking mindfulness IS a natural activity? One that all children possess?

I think so. But it is not stable.

When one concentrates on something (this also includes concentration on whatever one does or thinks) and then the mind looses the concentration on the object, wanders, and then - all of a sudden - one notices that it has wandered, that the mind is not focused on whatever we want it to focus on, this moment mindfulness is present.

Mindfulness shows you the current state of your mind. Usually, we use it to compare it to what we want the mind to do and then direct the mind to what we want. Once the mind does what we want it to do, mindfulness is lost again. This ability to redirect the mind is inherent to the human mind, even small children can use it to concentrate on something. But without some training mindfulness only shines for a moment. A flash of light and we can see our mind ... and then it is lost again and we are left in the dark.

2. Am I right in thinking that children are perhaps born with varying degrees of mindfuless? Also, their environment is likely to shape how mindful they become?

Yes to the second - as I said it can be trained.

Regarding the first question: I am not sure if mindfulness is a matter of DNA. From the Buddhist point of view I would say that previous lives influence our present birth and that present abilities such as concentration and mindfulness depend on our practice in previous lives.