Torn between soto zen and thai forest

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Munki
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Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by Munki »

Hi There,
I have been practising in the Soto Zen tradition for just over a year and was planning to take the precepts fairly soon. However, I was recently introduced to Thai forest and now feel kind've torn between the two. I feel drawn to both traditions for different reasons, and feel that there are alot of similarities,but at the same time do not know enough about Thai forest to make an informed decision. I know that you are not supposed to "mix" traditions, and feel that perhaps it would not be right to take precepts in Soto Zen when I am also leaning towards Thai Forest. I would truly appreciate any advice you have to offer.

Munki :namaste:
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Cittasanto
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by Cittasanto »

Although I do agree that sticking to one tradition is best, I don't see anything wrong with experiencing another, and I think it can even help in understanding your main one.
if you have a look at this site http://www.forestsangha.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there are teachings links to monestaries all over the world which may help you decide which one you prefer.
the site is from the Ajahn Chah "School" if you can call it that, and he mentions Zen monks in his talks (book format) I personally think the two are complimentary.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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kc2dpt
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by kc2dpt »

Explore both for a while, then decide. But remember you don't know enough to compare them directly. Rather you are seeing which one appeals to you more, which one inspires you to practice more.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by jcsuperstar »

i came from the soto school with 5 years studying under a teacher i loved. i find that i learned much from zen, but the mahayana sutras were too much of a problem for me.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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GrahamR
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Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by GrahamR »

Munki wrote:Hi There,
I have been practising in the Soto Zen tradition for just over a year and was planning to take the precepts fairly soon. However, I was recently introduced to Thai forest and now feel kind've torn between the two. I feel drawn to both traditions for different reasons, and feel that there are alot of similarities,but at the same time do not know enough about Thai forest to make an informed decision. I know that you are not supposed to "mix" traditions, and feel that perhaps it would not be right to take precepts in Soto Zen when I am also leaning towards Thai Forest. I would truly appreciate any advice you have to offer.

Munki :namaste:
In my view at the end of the day there are different types of cheese, but they are all still cheese. You can follow slightly different paths and still arrive at the same goal. Follow what you feel comfortable doing.
With metta :bow:
Graham
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kc2dpt
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by kc2dpt »

What a cheesy answer! :lol:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Individual
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by Individual »

Munki wrote:Hi There,
I have been practising in the Soto Zen tradition for just over a year and was planning to take the precepts fairly soon. However, I was recently introduced to Thai forest and now feel kind've torn between the two. I feel drawn to both traditions for different reasons, and feel that there are alot of similarities,but at the same time do not know enough about Thai forest to make an informed decision. I know that you are not supposed to "mix" traditions, and feel that perhaps it would not be right to take precepts in Soto Zen when I am also leaning towards Thai Forest. I would truly appreciate any advice you have to offer.

Munki :namaste:
The Buddha did not teach sectarianism. He was neither a Soto Zen nor a Theravada Buddhist. These are terms that originated from sectarian schisms. Rather than trying to find a preferential sect tailored to your views, in my opinion it's best to examine who is actually providing the original teaching of the Buddha, who is most useful, and who is most truthful, whose words are most in accordance in reality. This might be Zen or Theravada, it might be both in some sense, or it might be neither. The point, though, is that Zen vs. Theravada is as much of a false dichotomy as creating a dichotomy between modern vs. Theravada Zen, or between Rinzai vs. Soto, or between individual teachers of these schools.
The best things in life aren't things.

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DNS
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by DNS »

GrahamR wrote: In my view at the end of the day there are different types of cheese, but they are all still cheese.
Image
mmmm, cheese . . .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by Ceisiwr »

LOL :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:clap:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
DarkDream
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by DarkDream »

Just a couple of my thoughts.

I think whatever tradition you go into it is important to feel comfortable with it. Having said that, I also think it is essential that their is some flexibility in the teachings and there is a great emphasis on experience rather than the metaphysical aspects.

At least for me, I could never join something which says you must believe X, Y, and Z in order to be a part of a group.

I do not have much experience from the Zen tradition, but as the Thai forest tradition, I have met Ajahn Sumedho and have taken retreats by some of his former disciples. What really appealed to me was the emphasis not so much on the exact teachings and metaphysical realities but on the teachings in the here and now.
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christopher:::
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by christopher::: »

I've been most strongly drawn toward Zen, since the early 1980s. For me, the similarities between Zen and the Thai Forest tradition were a wonderful thing to discover. It's provided a bridge, so that I can gain a better understanding of the path of Theravadin Buddhism, and feel comfortable spending time with my sisters and brothers here.

To be honest, I still haven't taken any formal precepts or vows or anything since about 1974, at age 13, when I formally joined my parents' Unitarian Universalist church. I started to meditate on a daily basis in 1987, on my own. Since then I've meditated each morning, about 5 days out of 7, for about 20 minutes, in a corner of the room. My interest in Buddhism and spiritual practice has been a personal thing, which I rarely talked about with others until I stumbled upon E-sangha about 4 years ago. Now I'm a moderator of a Zen forum, but in my 3D life not much has changed.

Everything is Dhamma, Ajahn Chah has said. I think so. Everything that exists is part of the One Universal activity, Soto Zen teacher Shunryu Suzuki has taught us. You can make your commitments formal, but you don't have to. You can choose one school, but you don't have to. Listen to the Dhamma, it's preached by great masters, as well as trees. Most importantly, follow your heart.

:heart:
If we have awareness and understanding, if we study with wisdom and mindfulness, we will see Dhamma as reality. Thus, we sill see people as constantly being born, changing and finally passing away. Everyone is subject to the cycle of birth and death, and because of this, everyone in the universe is as One being. Thus, seeing one person clearly and distinctly is the same as seeing every person in the world.

In the same way, everything is Dhamma. Not only the things we see with our physical eye, but also the things we see in our minds. A thought arises, then changes and passes away. It is ''nāma dhamma'', simply a mental impression that arises and passes away. This is the real nature of the mind. Altogether, this is the noble truth of Dhamma. If one doesn't look and observe in this way, one doesn't really see! If one does see, one will have the wisdom to listen to the Dhamma as proclaimed by the Buddha.

Whether a tree, a mountain or an animal, it's all Dhamma, everything is Dhamma. Where is this Dhamma? Speaking simply, that which is not Dhamma doesn't exist. Dhamma is nature. This is called the ''Sacca Dhamma'', the True Dhamma. If one sees nature, one sees Dhamma; if one sees Dhamma, one sees nature. Seeing nature, one knows the Dhamma.

And so, what is the use of a lot of study when the ultimate reality of life, in its every moment, in its every act, is just an endless cycle of births and deaths? If we are mindful and clearly aware when in all postures (sitting, standing, walking, lying), then self-knowledge is ready to be born; that is, knowing the truth of Dhamma already in existence right here and now.

~Ajahn Chah
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"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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retrofuturist
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Monki,

Just take your time... and maybe think about which option poses the most roadblocks for you in the future.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by jcsuperstar »

i still kinda sorta consider myself a zen buddhist, but there is a very heavy theravada (and thai theravada) filter there and i always side on the pali cannon side of things and pretty much just ignore anything mahayana... but i think only in zen not other mahayana schools can one do this since theres the whole "outside the scriptures" thing...
its also a very very modern and western thing.. :cookoo:

i think mostly its just some sort of wierd "debt" i still think i owe my old master... :anjali:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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christopher:::
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by christopher::: »

jcsuperstar wrote:i still kinda sorta consider myself a zen buddhist, but there is a very heavy theravada (and thai theravada) filter there and i always side on the pali cannon side of things and pretty much just ignore anything mahayana... but i think only in zen not other mahayana schools can one do this since theres the whole "outside the scriptures" thing...
its also a very very modern and western thing.. :cookoo:
Just curious, what do you mean by "ignore anything mahayana"? I ignore a lot of stuff, but ideas concerning each of us being bodhisattvas and helping everyone to awaken, helping to reduce suffering in this world, those seem positive aspects of Mahayana, to me.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Torn between soto zen and thai forest

Post by jcsuperstar »

my zen teacher told me to forget about bodhisattvas and saving others. to just sit. thinking youre gonna save all sentient beings is just ego.

by mahayana i mean all those made up sutras about godlike buddhas and super bodhisattvas, and a true atman or we're all one etc etc
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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