Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sylvester
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Sylvester »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike
A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.
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mikenz66
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike
A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.
Yes, sure, I didn't feel convinced by all of his conclusions, but clearly he brings detailed knowledge of the Brahminical background which one can draw one's own conclusions about. Arguably, he points out some possibilities that both ancient and modern commentators missed because they didn't have a detailed understanding of that background.

Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, sure, I didn't feel convinced by all of his conclusions, but clearly he brings detailed knowledge of the Brahminical background which one can draw one's own conclusions about. Arguably, he points out some possibilities that both ancient and modern commentators missed because they didn't have a detailed understanding of that background.
I think Gombrich is spot with that, whatever else one may think about what he has to say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by nowheat »

Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu in "Mind Like Fire Unbound" http://www.archive.org/details/mindlikefire00thanmiss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; also interprets "upadana" as using the Vedic understanding of fire. This seems to say that "clinging" and "fuel" are part of the same mechanism in the Vedic understanding of fire. That fire clings to its fuel, that fuel is stuck to the fire.

:namaste:
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Sylvester wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Satori,

Since TiltBillings hasn't got back to you with references yet, I suggest reading:
What the Buddha Thought, by Richard Gombrich
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=19312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This book is easy to read and contains some informed discussion of the Brahminical thought that the Buddha was interacting with.

Mike
A rather hair-raising read. I was not too comfy with his suggestion that the Buddha intended "upadana" to retain its Vedic connection with "fuel", on the basis of the Five Fires notion. He seems to totally discount all the other suttas where upadana admits an easier reading with "clinging" rather than "fuel". But aside from this minor irritation, an otherwise refreshing book.
I don't think that he intends all appearances of the term to necessarily have this meaning.

By the relationship between Prakrits and Sanskrit, it is quite possible and not so uncommon that two different Skt roots can end up as the same Prakrit morphology. eg. that both the roots for grasping and fuel can end up as upadana. In this case, one must look at specific examples as to which has which root.

Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

I also recommend looking into the article by Jurewicz that Gombrich cites in his book.
In particular, it shows how the whole Vedic notion of "fire" works, which is kind of radically different from playing around with these terms and ideas in English.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Sylvester
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Sylvester »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.
Dear Bhante

Many thanks. So, would these non-Pali sources read "upadana" as "fuel" only in compounds (as above), but as "clinging" in stem form? I would be interested to see how these sources treat upadana when it is is used in the same passage as both a stem and in a compound, eg the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 44 when discussing the relationship between "upadana" and "pancupadanakkhandha".

:namaste:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by tiltbillings »

"Joanna Jurewicz" Playing with fire

http://books.google.com/books?id=g5wEgI ... 22&f=falseUnfortunately, the article is not complete.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Individual »

Satori wrote:Did he?
The Buddha explicitly rejected the Vedas in this sutta:
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brahmin, the three Vedas appointed by the brahmins is quite different to the three Vedas appointed in the discipline of the Noble Ones.
The Vedas during the Buddha's time was largely just a bunch of hymns and rituals. Some of the Hindu mythology therein seemed to have had an influence on Buddhist mythology, but the Buddha did not recognize Brahmin authority, worship the devas, or perform Vedic rituals.

Much of Hinduism today is based on the later texts added to Hindu literature, such as the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, not part of the Vedas, but still considered sacred. The later texts of Hinduism seem to show influence from the Sramanas (including the Buddha), although they are supposed to be merely interpretations of the poetry and prose of the original three Vedas.
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Paññāsikhara
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Sylvester wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:
Moreover, some non-Pali traditions also read the "upadana" in "upadana-skandha / upadanakhana" as "fuel", so it also has historical precedents to back it up.
Dear Bhante

Many thanks. So, would these non-Pali sources read "upadana" as "fuel" only in compounds (as above), but as "clinging" in stem form? I would be interested to see how these sources treat upadana when it is is used in the same passage as both a stem and in a compound, eg the Culavedalla Sutta, MN 44 when discussing the relationship between "upadana" and "pancupadanakkhandha".

:namaste:
One would have to make an extensive analysis of some 1000s of pages of text to answer this question. I haven't done that, so cannot say.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Sylvester
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Re: Did Lord Buddha accept the authority or reject the vedas?

Post by Sylvester »

Dear Bhante

But you're a PhD candidate!! How can you not have read those kotis of text? Surely the Prajnaparamita must have attempted to find some emptiness to upadana in order to transcend it?

Sorry, I could not resist the lame attempt at humour.

Could I trouble you to take a look at the 法樂比丘尼 (MA 210) and see if this particular sutra discussed upadana and the pancupadanakkhandha with the same term. Would it be 盛 ?

Many thanks in advance.
:anjali:
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