Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:22 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:By your own admuission, you are the one who took this thread off on an Visuddhimagga tangent.
No -- you're the one who told me I had somehow taken this thread off topic.
Holy crap, but do you shift the ground.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:36 pm

Given this thread has moved way beyond the OP and is not covering any new ground, time to shut it down.

A note to Ian: Obviously your thread has gotten away from you and what you wanted to do, which is why it ended up in the debate section. If you want to discuss jhana meditation in terms of actual practice, then please feel free to do so in the mediation forum, but I would suggest without the comments about other teachers and other methods that invite debate. While we cannot control what you say as long as it is within the TOS, we cannot control how others respond as long as they are within the TOS. Perceived contentious comments, intended or not, and the responses to them simply make for moderating difficulty and for a lack of flow in the thread. Also, I would strongly recommend keeping your comments concise and clear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:59 am

A complaint has been lodged about the closing of this thread. My idea in closing it was to allow Ian a fresh start with discussing jhana practice in the meditation section. This thread was moved from the meditation section to here after complaints about its debate-ishness, to make a clumsy word. Complaints all around. Now, to stay with this thread or start a new one is Ian's choice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
IanAnd
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of Arizona

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by IanAnd » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:21 am

With all that has transpired with this thread, I think Tilt's inclination to close it was probably the best choice.

If people want to ask questions about it or civilly hold discussions about it without going off topic, they can do so in the new meditation forum setup by starting a thread there. Vepacitta has posted an interesting question in this thread, which may become a jumping off point in that thread to carry on and continue this discussion.

I stated plainly in the thread I started that:
  • "This isn't meant to be combative or to offer up for debate any of the ideas express here. It's meant to allow others, who might perhaps have had similar experiences to the ones being described, a place to voice the discernment of their experiences and to confirm, correct, or add to the possibilities being explored here."
But, clearly, this had no effect, and people's passions got the better of them. Geoff posted a similar disclaimer in his most recently posted thread, and things were looking as though they might be repeated there (in terms of the thread becoming a debate, too).

I'm sorry for the way this turned out, for those who were genuinely interested in exploring the content of the thread. As Tilt suggests, probably better to start over on even ground.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:24 am

IanAnd wrote:I'm sorry for the way this turned out, for those who were genuinely interested in exploring the content of the thread. As Tilt suggests, probably better to start over on even ground.
I am glad you are starting anew and let me extend my apologies to you and everyone else for my part in this convoluted mess-up.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Ville N
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:02 pm
Location: Joensuu, Eastern Finland
Contact:

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by Ville N » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:28 pm

Hmm...such a great start for this thread, and then it turned out like this...Tilt, seems to me that you overreacted a bit. I think Ian was quite respectful in his posts, just sharing his own experiences...which are more than welcome. Everyone should know that such accounts have to be taken with a grain of salt anyway, so I see no harm in them...on the contrary, they have the potential to motivate others and help understand their own process better.

Anyway, thanks for the posts Ian. I do get what you were trying to say...not to diss authorities, but emphasise the fact that every "truth" has to be verified through your own experience. I've taken stuff for granted myself just based on authority, even though it wasn't appropriate for me. Like the simile of people travelling on a road: some need to be told to go left, some right, depending on which side they are...

Thus far, my "map" of the jhanas has been the one proposed by Ajahn Brahm. Hence it was quite interesting to consider the idea that there are also other kinds of classifications...

I don't think there's a real "sequel" for this post, is there? This is a very interesting topic and I'd have more stuff to write and ask, but I see little point in continuing here, since it's basically a dead thread...

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:37 pm

Ville N wrote:Hmm...such a great start for this thread, and then it turned out like this...Tilt, seems to me that you overreacted a bit. I think Ian was quite respectful in his posts, just sharing his own experiences...which are more than welcome.
Over reacted? Maybe, but Ian was doing a bit more than simply sharing his experiences, but that has already been litigated and there is no need to pursue it further. The sharing of experiences has been started in the so-called Meditation (Suttanta method) section in this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5761" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Everyone should know that such accounts have to be taken with a grain of salt anyway, so I see no harm in them...on the contrary, they have the potential to motivate others and help understand their own process better.
The potential for motivating others is there as is the potential harm in various ways. The grain of salt comment is good.
Thus far, my "map" of the jhanas has been the one proposed by Ajahn Brahm. Hence it was quite interesting to consider the idea that there are also other kinds of classifications...
Ajahn Brahm's take on jhana does not find a lot of favor among some of the jhana-advocates here. One of the things this points, which has been discussed at length in other threads, is that jhana has not solid set definition. It covers a fairly wide range of experiences.
I don't think there's a real "sequel" for this post, is there? This is a very interesting topic and I'd have more stuff to write and ask, but I see little point in continuing here, since it's basically a dead thread...
It is a dead thread. It was locked at one time, but re-opened at a request, but until your posting, it was slowly sinking downwards. The above linked thread is still active; Ian and Nana are knowledgeable contributors in the thread.

And one non sequitur, I really enjoyed your pronunciation video:
http://www.youtube.com/villevn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests