Vipassana is mindfulness?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Jack
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by Jack » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:56 pm

It is my understanding that the suttas don't make a distinction between mindfulness meditation and vipassana/insight meditation. Teachers define the difference, if any, their own way.

I think vipassana/insight meditation is a further refinement of mindfulness. Vipassana/insight meditation is specifically looking for the 3 Marks in all phenomena.

jack

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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:01 pm

Jack wrote:It is my understanding that the suttas don't make a distinction between mindfulness meditation and vipassana/insight meditation. Teachers define the difference, if any, their own way.
But those teachers go back to the Commentaries, and to Suttas like the following:

AN 4.94 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
AN 4.170 Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."
Mike

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:08 am

5heaps wrote:.... one doesnt. simple observance of conventional truth doesnt count as even an intellectual understanding - its simply wrong with regard to reality (ie. the nature of things).
But one can observe, for example, the transitory nature of mental objects as they come and go, how they arise and they cease. One can observe the nature of desires as they come and goes, the wanting and not wanting and potential for suffering.

To me these observations are pointing to the nature of things, to how things really are.

Spiny

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:11 am

SamKR wrote:The "ultimate truth" should unfold itself while observation deepens. It is not something that we should project on things beforehand.
I'm inclined to agree. But in practice I find it's difficult to be truly open-minded and not be looking for signs of the 3 characteristics, or "evidence" of the Noble Truths.

Spiny

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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by 5heaps » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:46 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:To me these observations are pointing to the nature of things, to how things really are.
Theravada Practice of the Four Close Placements of Mindfulness
it says "Only the realization of the nonstaticness of the affecting variables having all these features is the full realization of nonstaticness through close placement of mindfulness". nonstaticness refers to momentariness.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:51 pm

5heaps wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:To me these observations are pointing to the nature of things, to how things really are.
Theravada Practice of the Four Close Placements of Mindfulness
it says "Only the realization of the nonstaticness of the affecting variables having all these features is the full realization of nonstaticness through close placement of mindfulness". nonstaticness refers to momentariness.
Rather trhan reading a discussion of Theravadan vipassana from a Tibetan Buddhist standpoint, maybe it would be better to refer to actual what actual Theravadin meditation teachers have to say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:53 pm

5heaps wrote:
Ben wrote:Could you please explain it?
did you see the post above about the two truths?

for example, the hand which appears to a mind apprehending it obstructs the apprehension of its ultimate truth, namely the ultimate particles that make up the hand.

therefore a conventional truth is truth for a deceived mind (ie. one which is unable to realize the nature of reality - ultimate truth). this fake truth is what it means to see, believe, and run a life by way of unchanging, monolithic etc characteristics, even though they dont even slightly exist.
Is this statement something Nagajuna would agree with? Does it accurately reflect the Theravadin take on the two truths.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

5heaps
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by 5heaps » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Is this statement something Nagajuna would agree with? Does it accurately reflect the Theravadin take on the two truths.
im speaking from a Thervadin pov. Nagarjuna would heavily disagree that those are the meaning of the two truths, though he accepts that things lack being unchanging, monolithic etc.
maybe it would be better to refer to actual what actual Theravadin meditation teachers have to say.
although its berzin it does say, "(based on Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Mindfulness with Breathing. Boston: Wisdom, 1996.)". is it wrong?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:14 pm

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is this statement something Nagajuna would agree with? Does it accurately reflect the Theravadin take on the two truths.
im speaking from a Thervadin pov.
You are speaking from a Theravadin point of view concerning the two truths? Source, please?
Nagarjuna would heavily disagree that those are the meaning of the two truths, though he accepts that things lack being unchanging, monolithic etc.
Clarify for me what you mean here3. I am not at all following you. Be a little more expansive, please.
maybe it would be better to refer to actual what actual Theravadin meditation teachers have to say.
although its berzin it does say, "(based on Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Mindfulness with Breathing. Boston: Wisdom, 1996.)". is it wrong?[/quote]Berzin referencing of Ven Buddhadasa sort of makes my point. Buddhadasa, who has his own idiosyncratic take on things, was not a fan of the Burmese style of vipassana, which is what most here are referencing when talking about mindfulness practice.
5heaps wrote: is this unfolding supposed to happen with the mere continuation and cultivation of concentration, or does it also require insight (ie. cessation of ignorance due to performing analysis)?
This reflects a Tibetan understanding of vipassana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

5heaps
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by 5heaps » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:48 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Source, please?
which part?
that there are 2 truths - conventional and ultimate?
that ultimate refers to deepest objects?
that conventional refers to superficial (deceptive ie. contrary to ultimate) objects?
that partless particles are ultimates?
that coarser build ups of partless particles are conventional?
if you accept all those things then the rest of what i said is just logic based off those.
there is an additional classification - pure objects and impure objects. ultimates are pure because they can never inspire mental afflictions, including the notion of atta (ie. can never be the target of them)
Clarify for me what you mean here
Nagarjuna has different ideas about the two truths. he doesnt accept the idea of partless particles made up of their own defining characteristics, therefore they cant be ultimates.
even though he has such radical ideas, he still purports to be working within the framework of denying unchanging objects, monolithic objects, and objects which could be independent of their parts.
This reflects a Tibetan understanding of vipassana.
in what particular way?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:57 pm

5heaps wrote:
This reflects a Tibetan understanding of vipassana.
in what particular way?
What kind of analysis are you talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

5heaps
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by 5heaps » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:21 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
This reflects a Tibetan understanding of vipassana.
in what particular way?
What kind of analysis are you talking about.
the analysis that negates its object of negation - an unchanging, monolithic, independent person

i was arguing that although concentration on noting can induce many insights, this concentration and these insights must ultimately culminate in a grand insight which fully cuts ignorance. this final and full insight, then, is the only instance of ultimate truth. the rest were just conventional
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:53 pm

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Source, please?
which part?
that there are 2 truths - conventional and ultimate?
that ultimate refers to deepest objects?
But is the "ultimate" truer than the conventional?
that conventional refers to superficial (deceptive ie. contrary to ultimate) objects?
According to whom?
that partless particles are ultimates?
Ultimate what? The Theravada does not necessarily teach "partless particles."
that coarser build ups of partless particles are conventional?
According to whom?
if you accept all those things then the rest of what i said is just logic based off those.
Not from a Theravadin point of view.
Clarify for me what you mean here
Nagarjuna has different ideas about the two truths. he doesnt accept the idea of partless particles made up of their own defining characteristics, therefore they cant be ultimates.
Ultimate is a relative term.
even though he has such radical ideas, he still purports to be working within the framework of denying unchanging objects, monolithic objects, and objects which could be independent of their parts.
And your point is here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:55 pm

5heaps wrote:i was arguing that although concentration on noting can induce many insights, this concentration and these insights must ultimately culminate in a grand insight which fully cuts ignorance. this final and full insight, then, is the only instance of ultimate truth. the rest were just conventional
"Concentration on noting?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

rowyourboat
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Re: Vipassana is mindfulness?

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:34 pm

Vipassana starts at udayabbaya nana, when the three marks of anicca, dukkha and anatta has been well understood:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/bm7insight.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
:anjali:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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