Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:23 pm

alan wrote:In other words, its a fraud.
One might want to be a little more temperate with how one expresses this. Fraud would indicate a deliberate misleading of other. As indicated, what we have with the self-described hard-core movement is a wholesale redefining of terms such as jhana and arahant to fit with the experience of its leaders. I think they mean well, but are a bit mistaken.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:24 pm

Clayton wrote:
alan wrote:That is the funny thing about delusion--you don't know when you're in it.
Dynamic Jhana--wow! You must be so cool. Sure wish I could go there.
Yeah I am pretty cool, thank you for noticing. You know what I don't think is cool though, Slander...

Do not consider the faults of others
Or what they have or haven’t done.
Consider rather
What you yourself have or haven’t done.

- The Dhammapada
Like the inaccurate, but nasty referring to those who do not see a need to blab their attainment as mushroom people fed on merde?
Kenneth: There’s a kind of a culture that has grown up in Theravada Buddhism that it is shameful to admit that you have attained any of this. That nice people don’t talk about this, kind of in the way that nice people don’t look up ladies’ skirts. This is a shameful thing, and probably this came about from the rules for monks. Monks are not allowed to claim any state or attainment except to other monks. And for better or worse, I think for worse, we developed, especially in the West, what Bill Hamilton called the “mushroom culture.” By mushroom, he said, “Keep them in the dark and feed them stuff.”

Vince: You mean shit? [laughs]

Kenneth: That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/02/bg ... alization/
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:28 pm

Clayton wrote:Thank you for your respectful response Ben. I understand your position. You are correct that what I call Jhana does not line up with some of the Suttras and Commentaries. I accept that. Indeed it is important to tend towards caution when assessing our progress. I have checked my experience with not only my friends in the hardcore community but also strict Vinaya Monks... its good to get a 2nd opinion...

Clayton
I think is a good point, which points the fact that the hard-core-ites are not talking about Theravada or the suttas or the commentaries or Buddhism in general. This is essentially an admission that they are talking about Folk and Ingram's reinterpretation of Buddhism, which, as we have seen here, has little to really do with the teachings of the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:37 pm

owenbecker wrote:Hey Clayton,
Probably best not bothering with these guys. They seem to have overdosed on the medicine.
-o
You are completely missing the problem. Actually a number of us have. It is spelled out neatly here:
Clayton wrote:Thank you for your respectful response Ben. I understand your position. You are correct that what I call Jhana does not line up with some of the Suttas and Commentaries. I accept that. Indeed it is important to tend towards caution when assessing our progress. I have checked my experience with not only my friends in the hardcore community but also strict Vinaya Monks... its good to get a 2nd opinion...

Clayton
In other words we are not talking about the same things at all. Folk and Ingram have simply re-interpreted the vocabulary of the Dhamma to become something else altogether.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by elcfa » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Folk and Ingram has simply re-interpreted the vocabulary of the Dhamma to become something else altogether.
This is exactly what bothers me a lot and used to confuse the hell out of me.

I was trying very hard to see where I got my understanding of the suttas (as well as my meditation practice) so different from their interpretation.

It was until I heard Ingram in his latest talk about AF (Actual Freedom) posted in his website saying "Neither what I called Arahat ... lined up with the Arahatship found in the old texts" (found at 4'50'' on this first talk with Tarin Greco, if you think I am misquoting him) that I came to the same conclusion that the whole thing is just 'Freestyling' Dharma. :jawdrop:

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by gsteinb » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:42 pm

Actual Freedom because the freedom discussed in the suttas (arahantship) wasn't really the freedom of the eradication of the grasping and clinging because that's not really possible except with this new thing discovered by some guy a couple of years ago?

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Kenshou » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:26 pm

I think I realize what exactly is so funny about all of this hardcore stuff to me, in part at least.

It is said that patterns of self-identification, self-contraction, whatever you call it, remain but are not identified with, not stuck to, etc., right? This is the impression I've gotten from Ingram, Folk may be different, I simply haven't had the energy to read his material thoroughly.

But anyway, I have realized that that is simply an oxymoron. You cannot be self-identifying and yet also not. You either are or you aren't. You can't both be making a self and yet not be making a self out of the self-making. If you are self-making, you are self-making, and that's all there is to it. You may see it with a degree of wisdom and not be entirely hoodwinked by it, but if you are doing it, the fact is that no matter how you twist the words, you are doing it. If arahatship were gained, ignorance defeated, self-making would have no fuel to bubble up, at least in my comparatively traditionalist understanding.

If I'm misrepresenting anyone, don't hesitate to say so.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:35 pm

gsteinb wrote:Actual Freedom because the freedom discussed in the suttas (arahantship) wasn't really the freedom of the eradication of the grasping and clinging because that's not really possible except with this new thing discovered by some guy a couple of years ago?
The poor Buddha, he did not really understand what actual freedom was.

It seems that "Actual Freedom" is a point of disagreement between Folk and Ingram:

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/t ... er+context" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is interesting is that Folk states on page 2:
I can only speculate. I believe that Daniel is just now discovering the timeless perspective. The problem is that his Buddhist model has no place for the timeless. Since his arahatship, he has consistently railed against any understanding that does not fit within the conservative Theravada view. Timeless perspectives are vilified as "the dogma of the radical nowists," and mocked as "such bull---t." Those who speak of primordial awareness are dismissed and relegated to the realm of the perpetually unenlightened; although an anagami might speak of awareness, Daniel has argued, all such delusional notions are overcome by arahatship.[Emphasis added]
Ingram, as can be seen in the very early part of this thread, certainly does not hold a conservative Theravada view, which suggests that none of these guys really knows what they are talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by manas » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:34 pm

The Buddha, while alive, was very strict indeed regarding the misrepresentation of his Teaching:

"Is it true, Ari.t.tha, that you have conceived this pernicious view: 'There are things called "obstructions" by the Blessed One. As I understand his teaching those things are not necessarily obstructive for him who pursues them'?" — "Yes, indeed, Lord, I understand the teaching of the Blessed One in this way that those things called 'obstructions' by the Blessed One, are not necessarily obstructive for him who pursues them."

6. "Of whom do you know, foolish man, that I have taught to him the teaching in that manner? Did I not, foolish man, speak in many ways of those obstructive things that they are obstructions indeed, and that they necessarily obstruct him who pursues them? Sense desires, so I have said, bring little enjoyment, and much suffering and disappointment. The perils in them are greater. Sense desires are like bare bones, have I said; they are like a lump of flesh... they are like a snake's head, have I said. They bring much suffering and disappointment. The perils in them are greater. But you, O foolish man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly grasped. You have undermined your own (future) and have created much demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering for a long time."[3]


So, misrepresentation of the Buddha was happening while he was physically present....and 2500 years have passed since then! And the Teaching, well before KF or DI had ever set eyes on the Dhamma, had already branched into the many varied sects even within the Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana (etc) schools.

The suttas in the Pali Tipitaka are the closest and most reliable source of the authentic teachings of the historical Buddha (but would we want any from any 'other' Buddha?). They are probably not perfect, they might have a few corruptions (I am not qualified to judge though), but they are still the best we have. Delusion being so tricky to overcome, we surely need the aid of a Buddha, not just contemporaries who feel they have either rediscovered, redefined, or even surpassed the Teaching of One whom, by all accounts, was singularly impressive in a really huge way. He sent waves through the spiritual dimension of humanity, and the ripples can be perceived even now. I feel them whenever I read the words of the Dhammapada, for example. Such beauty, truth, and power. And the words of the Buddha (as we have them) keep my mind from straying into it's own self-serving version of truth (delusion is very tricky...).

So what I find so irritating about the redefining of the Dhamma that is going on in some circles is the presumption that ANY of us have the same singularly massive spiritual footprint of a Tathagatha. We don't. When a true One arises, we will know (not in this lifetime). Until then, I will continue to use the teachings of the most recent One as my guide.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by M. Christine » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:31 pm

My daughter was 4 when she became obsessed with Jackie Chan. There was no rest until we enrolled her in A Shaolin northern long arm school.

One class and she was done. "Kung Fu is HARD. I just want to make up my own moves." OK, but that's not Kung Fu.

As it turned out she became a disciplined practitioner.



Like a bird scratching in the garden, this debate has kicked up a few leaves. Grateful for the fresh air.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Ben » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:58 am

M. Christine wrote:Like a bird scratching in the garden, this debate has kicked up a few leaves. Grateful for the fresh air.
I'm glad you are finding it of benefit, Christine. I look forward to reading more of your contributions.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by nobody12345 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:25 am

Peter wrote:
Relevant to this thread, if one rejects all the Buddha's descriptions of arahantship then one cannot reasonably claim to be an arahant. It would be like saying "I reject the teaching that apples are red and have edible skin. I believe they are yellow and have inedible skin." What you're talking about is not an apple but rather a banana. Likewise, Ingram is clearly not talking about Buddhism but rather a religion of his own making. I think it is clear he is in fact saying Buddhism is false.

Rather than saying this is a book written by an arahant, it seems to be more accurate to say this is a book written by one who rejects the notion of arahantship as a false path.
I agree whole heartily with this post.
Ingram's 'enlightenment' has nothing to do with the Buddha's enlightenment.
He is making his own Buddhism in his own delusion.
Ingram's term is more along the line of the term 'enlightenment' used by Gnostics and Christian mystics.
This type of enlightenment is quite different than our supreme teacher, the Buddha's.
The Buddha's path is the only way to reach the Deathless.
Some Gods (Devas) and spiritual beings can bring the indescribable joy and bliss that felt quite uber-supramundane.
Some genuine seekers lost their way by misguided experience as such.
Unwise souls mistake the exprience as a true enlightenment and then the game is over.
The being is tied to Samsara now stronger than ever!
:o
ps: I feel sorry for Ingram.
I wish him well and wish him to develope the power of wisdom and discernment.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by nobody12345 » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:00 am

Snowmelt wrote: I think that just letting your mind wander where it wants is highly detrimental to advancement on the Path, and reading endless texts purporting to be about Buddhism, particularly those whose authors contradict the most basic tenets of the Pali Canon, involves allowing your mind to do just that. I think the reason why people do this is because they haven't the wisdom to stay with the Pali Canon; in the best Western tradition, they want endlessly to leap to the next shiny bauble, hopelessly and desultorily searching for a magic bullet that will make them fully Enlightened without effort ("Quick, give me an Enlightenment pill, I've only got five minutes before the match starts on TV!") This is proliferation and distraction and delusion; it will *never* lead to Enlightenment.
Great post.
Majority of books on Buddhism in America has nothing to do with our supreme teacher, the awakened one.
Ignoring the various subjects that is not so popular in the mainstream society (such as Kamma, reincarnation, and etc.) will create (or already created?) the distorted Buddhism that will never lead anybody to the liberation.
Bhikkhu Bodhi said during one intervew few years ago that the dangers of Buddhism in America is it might become 'feel good, psychotherapy' like Buddhism that would bring no liberation.
I couldn't agree more with Bhikkhu Bodhi.
We should stick to the original teaching of Pali Canon no matter what others say.
If others want to 'feel good' about their mundane life and mundane limitations, then let them be.
However, we, the followers of the true Dhamma should never be bothered with their tempting words and fake consolations and reward them by buying their books and various programs.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by manas » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:57 am

imaginos wrote: However, we, the followers of the true Dhamma should never be bothered with their tempting words and fake consolations and reward them by buying their books and various programs.
Hi imaginos, I share your zeal in wishing to practice the true Dhamma. :) I hope you don't mind me pointing out, however, that the Teaching has been transmitted down via many generations of monastics over 2500 years, by monks of varying levels of insight. While I also decry the dilution of Dhamma principles for the sake of popularity, or the hijacking of the legacy of the Teacher by persons like Ingram falsely claiming to represent what the Buddha actually intended (?), I still don't assume that we sutta-ites are necessarily followers of the true Dhamma' either. We do our best, but with the founder so long gone, it's not a sure thing. We are putting alot of trust in many, many generations of monks, remember, trusting that nothing was added to, or taken from, or altered, in the Teaching...and since we DO find instances where this has happened, it means we should not be fundamentalist about being the closest to original Buddhism. Probably, but not definitely!
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

nobody12345
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Post by nobody12345 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:02 am

manasikara wrote:
imaginos wrote: However, we, the followers of the true Dhamma should never be bothered with their tempting words and fake consolations and reward them by buying their books and various programs.
Hi imaginos, I share your zeal in wishing to practice the true Dhamma. :) I hope you don't mind me pointing out, however, that the Teaching has been transmitted down via many generations of monastics over 2500 years, by monks of varying levels of insight. While I also decry the dilution of Dhamma principles for the sake of popularity, or the hijacking of the legacy of the Teacher by persons like Ingram falsely claiming to represent what the Buddha actually intended (?), I still don't assume that we sutta-ites are necessarily followers of the true Dhamma' either. We do our best, but with the founder so long gone, it's not a sure thing. We are putting alot of trust in many, many generations of monks, remember, trusting that nothing was added to, or taken from, or altered, in the Teaching...and since we DO find instances where this has happened, it means we should not be fundamentalist about being the closest to original Buddhism. Probably, but not definitely!
Hi Manasikara.
No, I don't mind at all about any constructive criticism.
You have valid point and I agree that probably there's no tradition that preserved the Buddha's teaching with 100% accuracy.
However, my comment was mainly directed to the new breed of straight up commercialism approach to Buddhism.
Since the best gift that one can give is the teaching of Dhamma, I think the worst thing that one can do to other human being is to lead him or her astray.
I found it very sad that some of the best selling books in the Buddhism section are the ones with little or zero difference with new age literature.
It is my opinion that the Dhamma is a genuine raft that is designed so marvelously that it can carry one across to the other shore.
But in order to function as a raft, it must be built with utter care following the original design.
Altough we'd never know the 100.00% accurate original teaching of the Buddha, our best chance for liberation is following the known original portion of the teaching (i.e. Pali Canon) as much as we can.
In Metta.

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