Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:48 pm

cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?
tiltbillings wrote:
Manapa wrote:in case no one realised I have edited my last post!

but tilt what do you mean by blip?'
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... age_363966:
Then when those two characteristics where dwelled on it made perfect sense......dukkha!!!! Non-satisfactoriness /suffering....that is why there is so much suffering...it made so much sense and as soon as that was dwelled on.....there was a sensation of something about to happen...a sensation of being pulled up on the crown slightly and then a moment of something...I refer to it as a conk out but that might be too descriptive...a blip out maybe is better. Then the mind, which is now the calmest it's ever been seems to stall for a second or two. Someone has explained it as feeling like the rebooting of a computer and that is how it feels. A second or two of this and then the mind is kind of back as it was before and then a bliss wave hits you. Initially the bliss wave was intense and had an amazing Wow factor but these days it feels so normal and although it feels very cooling and refreshing for the mind there is no wow factor to it. Very normal and mundane.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:52 pm

Manapa wrote:cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?
You most likely had a blip at that very moment when you were reading the thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Manapa wrote:cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?
You most likely had a blip at that very moment when you were reading the thread.
sorry! missed that :)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Dharmakara » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:15 pm

Alex123 wrote:I understand the pop idea that "if you set standarts too high, then you will be discouraged and don't try".

But it also has serious drawbacks. If you set standarts too low, then you won't need to work as hard and as long, and the "attainments" will not be the real thing. So one would stop short before reaching significant stage.

Also when setting the bar too low, one would aim too low - where if one were to set the bar as high as possible, one would have to aim higher and attempt to go further.
It's kind of funny, but there's a quote from the Rule of Saint Benedict which comes to mind, an expression which seems to resonate with the ideal of the Middle Way (majjhima patipada):

"Something for the strong to strive after and nothing to dishearten the weak"

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:16 am

Hey this is Clayton, I was the third voice in that recording. I had quickly risen up to the state which we refer to as the 8th jhana... experiencing neither perception nor non perception. Coming out of it I mentioned it for the recording. We practice something called dynamic jhana which is not as absorbed as the jhana talked about in the suttras. Now I can get much more absorbed than we were, but we just wanted to give everyone a taste of the jhanas or strata of mind.

Clayton

Edit: Ben if you haven't yet listened to the first recording I think your might want to check out the recording we just put up. There are no Technical glitches like there were with the first recording, and there is some discussion afterward of dynamic vrs static jhana. Thank you for your open disposition, I find your posts very well thought out and respectfull...

http://www.divshare.com/download/12560837-2e6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by Clayton on Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Reductor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:42 am

Clayton wrote:Hey this is Clayton, I was the third voice in that recording. I had quickly risen up to the state which we refer to as the 8th jhana... experiencing neither perception nor non perception. Coming out of it I mentioned it for the recording. We practice something called dynamic jhana which is not as absorbed as the jhana talked about in the suttras. Now I can get much more absorbed than we were, but we just wanted to give everyone a taste of the jhanas or strata of mind.

Clayton
Pardon my doubts, Clayton. I have a few.

But as your practice doesn't impinge on my own, I suppose you are welcome to see what you want as you want. As for giving everyone a taste: I don't know that 'taste' comes by ear at all, let alone by ear alone. So pardon me in thinking that much of this is simply talk, or perhaps a redefining of what these attainments are.

But considering that you have volunteered a defense of the recording, I will ask you a question.

In what sense are we to understand the word 'dynamic'?

Thanks for your answer.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:53 am

That is the funny thing about delusion--you don't know when you're in it.
Dynamic Jhana--wow! You must be so cool. Sure wish I could go there.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:04 am


Pardon my doubts, Clayton. I have a few.

But as your practice doesn't impinge on my own, I suppose you are welcome to see what you want as you want.
No need to pardon anything. I would be worried if you didn't have doubts.
As for giving everyone a taste: I don't know that 'taste' comes by ear at all, let alone by ear alone. So pardon me in thinking that much of this is simply talk, or perhaps a redefining of what these attainments are.
Uhh... I am well aware of how the sense doors operate. This was something my dharma brothers and me thought might be helpfull for those who wished to get a broad auidio overview of what we experience the nanas and jhanas to be.
But considering that you have volunteered a defense of the recording, I will ask you a question.

In what sense are we to understand the word 'dynamic'?

Thanks for your answer.
I have volunteered no defense of this recording. I have tried to make a simple clairification. I am not here to defend what we believe/experience against what the Dhamma Wheel community believes/experiences. Like you, other's method of practice doesn't really affect me. I just thought I would try to resolve that ambiguity.

The word dynamic has been clarified rather well by a quote on the previous page. I guess the simplest way to explain it is to see concentration and vipassana as two ends of the same spectrum. The harder the absorbtion is the less you can tear it down based on the 3 characteristics. If there is just the vipassana with near no concentration that can stall out rather quickly. So for me dynamic simply means being in the stratum of mind which can be turned into an absorbtion, but not getting so absorbed that the 3 characteristics are not clearly percieved.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:10 am

alan wrote:That is the funny thing about delusion--you don't know when you're in it.
Dynamic Jhana--wow! You must be so cool. Sure wish I could go there.
Yeah I am pretty cool, thank you for noticing. You know what I don't think is cool though, Slander...

Do not consider the faults of others
Or what they have or haven’t done.
Consider rather
What you yourself have or haven’t done.

- The Dhammapada

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:16 am

Make sense, please.
No one is making any sense.
P.S. Slander--that is a serious charge. But you haven't read the Suttas, have you?

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Ben » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:28 am

Hi Clayton and welcome to Dhamma Wheel,
Clayton wrote: The word dynamic has been clarified rather well by a quote on the previous page. I guess the simplest way to explain it is to see concentration and vipassana as two ends of the same spectrum. The harder the absorbtion is the less you can tear it down based on the 3 characteristics. If there is just the vipassana with near no concentration that can stall out rather quickly. So for me dynamic simply means being in the stratum of mind which can be turned into an absorbtion, but not getting so absorbed that the 3 characteristics are not clearly percieved.
This indicates to me, based on my readings and understanding of the Pali Canon and commentarial literature, as well as my own experience, that what you are referring to is not jhana. I agree with assertions made here that there seems to be a redefinition of certain attainments within the hardcore movement as they bear very little relation to the recorded wisdom and lived experience within the Theravada. That is not to say you are not experiencing exotic states of mind, but I would caution you that it may not be evidence of liberation nor progress towards liberation.
One thing we should always to is to scrutinize any unusual meditative experience we may have. As I have mentioned time and again, the Buddha warns us in the Brahmajala Sutta that meditative experiences are a primary source of wrong view. We should scrutinize the experience and examine whether it evokes a pleasurable sensation and if so whether the sensation is derived as a result of the experience appealing to our own predispositions. Be mindful Clayton that not everything is what it seems, particularly so in the realm of the mind.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by alan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:36 am

In other words, its a fraud.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:39 am

Thank you for your respectful response Ben. I understand your position. You are correct that what I call Jhana does not line up with some of the Suttras and Commentaries. I accept that. Indeed it is important to tend towards caution when assessing our progress. I have checked my experience with not only my friends in the hardcore community but also strict Vinaya Monks... its good to get a 2nd opinion...

Clayton

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Reductor » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:02 am

Clayton wrote:
Uhh... I am well aware of how the sense doors operate. This was something my dharma brothers and me thought might be helpfull for those who wished to get a broad auidio overview of what we experience the nanas and jhanas to be.
Sorry, my humor is a little different.

I mean that discussion of your experiences as they unfold seems a pretty ineffective way to instruct, but would be a good way to impress. In addition to that would be miscommunication of what you're experiencing, as in the quote about you being "in the eight". Phrased in the present tense, this suggests that you are speaking from the attainment and gives no hint that you've come out if it and are speaking in normal space (so to speak).
But considering that you have volunteered a defense of the recording, I will ask you a question.

In what sense are we to understand the word 'dynamic'?

Thanks for your answer.
I have volunteered no defense of this recording. I have tried to make a simple clairification.
To make a defense does not mean that you are 'defensive' in the emotive sense of an aversive reaction to perceived attack. I mean that there is a criticism made and you responded to allay the cause of that criticism.

The word dynamic has been clarified rather well by a quote on the previous page. I guess the simplest way to explain it is to see concentration and vipassana as two ends of the same spectrum. The harder the absorbtion is the less you can tear it down based on the 3 characteristics. If there is just the vipassana with near no concentration that can stall out rather quickly. So for me dynamic simply means being in the stratum of mind which can be turned into an absorbtion, but not getting so absorbed that the 3 characteristics are not clearly percieved.
My trouble with your above statement is that the eighth attainment does not provide a clear position from which to evaluate the experience. Rather there is only the sense that phenomena continue in a shapeless, nebulous, way. How then, from such a state, can there be vipassana?

Which brings me to my next question. What is the characteristic of the eighth absorption, according to the hardcore folks?

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by owenbecker » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:39 pm

Hey Clayton,
Probably best not bothering with these guys. They seem to have overdosed on the medicine.
-o

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