About the value of studies

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username_5
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by username_5 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:30 pm

I have the utmost respect for the scientific method and less than the utmost respect for how various groups have manipulated trust in the scientific method for their own gains.

Of all the means of gaining knowledge I believe the scientific method reins supreme in those areas where it can be applied. This makes it a frequent target of charlatans and monied interests looking to profit from it's credibility.

I highly value scientific studies, but like many others have said, I look for the money trail. I consider it a strong bias and then look for confirmation from sources without that bias or even better with an opposed bias to confirm.

The method itself is blameless in my opinion even though it cannot be applied to all questions. The way it is manipulated is shameful and reveals the suffering we as humans must endure on our path to truth and happiness.

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Cittasanto
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:39 pm

Calahand wrote:
The main philosophical principle that drives modern medicine is this , "DO NO HARM" - "Primum non nocere (in latin)"
sorry no it isn't!

not harming a patient is a secondary principle! the main principle it to restore normal health by reasonable means, which in some cases means harming the patient.

You certainly won't find the quote in the hippocratic oath, but it can be found in the hippocratic writings "to do good, or do no harm" which clearly place not doing (direct) harm second.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Calahand
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Calahand » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:29 am

I don't know man, through out my medical education they told me "primium Non nocere" along with, "Don't do anything stupid , and you will be fine", so I think one of them is the first principle of modern medicine. Anyway, what you are saying about how you "harm" the guy to restore his health sounds "doing the stupid" to me, so I am guessing we don't do that in modern medicine. Oh yeah the whole killing the cancer by chemotherapy and that harming the patient ... that I can argue is not harming the patient, it is killing the cancer, and yeah in the process makes the guy really weak, but you are not harming the patient , you are saving them, even though you make them miserable, they will thank you once they are free of the disease.

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:40 am

Calahand wrote:"If this type of ignorace weren't so sad, I would have been rolling on the floor by now.

Still 20 years ago, every serious scientist dismissed acupuncture.

Now they have to admit that it works, because we have so much evidence.

In a while from now, it may be possible to explain how homeopathy works.

What any homeopath like me can already tell you today is this:

We know it works, and so do our healed patients.

We are 'tailors'. We don't make one suit that fits all.

We don't treat symptoms, but remove causes. "


Hello, colleague,

I couldn't have said it any better than you! Perfect! :twothumbsup:

Actually this is what I say on my professional blog which is still under construction: http://naturheilpraxisbeuing.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps it should be mentioned here that many people who take homeopathic remedies often don't need any allopathic remedies even in higher age.

Hope we can chat some more about this!

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:58 am

Vardali wrote:
Anicca wrote:According to a recent study by the Annals of Internal Medicine, here in America you get the *best* studies money can buy...
A recent study published in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine has revealed that industry-funded clinical trials -- that is, drug trials funded by pharmaceutical companies -- almost always show positive results for the drugs they test. In contrast, only about half of government-funded studies show the same drugs to be safe and effective...
LA Times article
Natural News article

Metta
And as awareness of this pheomenon rises, people tend to believe less and less what published studies say ...

For example, I don't trust any studies and promotions from the food industry, at all. I basically try to avoid processed food as much as possible and rely on my own experience. I would imagine that alternative medicine follows similar logic.

Still, I wouldn't say, corporations "lie" to promote their products. They just have become very sophisticated in highlighting selective truths. Still, bottomline is probably the same: I don't trust what they are market ;)

That's why such a "reference culture" has emerged where people rate their experience and others base their purchasing decisions on it ... It's going more back to anecdotal experience rather than studies due to the latter having been devalued.

:popcorn:
Good post!
I basically try to avoid processed food as much as possible and rely on my own experience. I would imagine that alternative medicine follows similar logic.
Sort of. Yes. I think I have tested all my methods on myself first. I sort out everything that is not showing the effects I want to see.

I have tested a lot on ill pets. If they heal a method works, since animals don't react to placebos.

Pets react to homeopathy and Bach flower remedies in overwhelming clarity, plus, my own reactions convinced me too, of course.

The problem with subtle healing methods can be that people who are used to the effects of bummers, such as valium and Cortison, are not able to identify whence healing came from, and will muse: I think the body healed itself, not your remedy...?

Of course the body healed itself, but BECAUSE of the impetus the subtle remedy gave!

That's all it is about!!

I now explain this prior to a treatment.
Last edited by Annapurna on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shonin
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Shonin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:01 am

Annapurna wrote:I got a bladder infection when I was 19, due to a medical tube put into the bladder for a few days after an accident.

This infection was not discovered, although I was in a hospital, it became chronical and would flared up again after going for a swim, or a walk in the snow, so that I soon had to take antibiotics each month, and finally daily.

As a result, I had constant diarrhea, since antibiotics also kill the intestinal bacteria that we need to digest.

I was soon too weak to attend university classes, but didn't know how to get out of this vicious cycle.

One day I ran out of antibiotics, and went to a pharmacy, it was close to six, closing time and implored them to give me the medicine, although I had no prescription, -I would bring it the next day .

They refused to, but recommended a herbal tea, a mixture of like 10 herbs, which have been used since centuries to cure bladder infections.

I went home nearly crying, but with the tea.

I had no belief in it, I wanted my antibiotic, but out of desperation I prepared a cup and drank the horribly bitter brew.

I later forced down another cup with utter contempt, and woke up the next day without fever and bladder pain.

I was completely surprised. :jumping:

Over the weekend, I drove home to my parents, drank my tea, 3-5 times a day and felt fabulous.

I had my urine tested-no bacteria.

I usually always had some bacteria.

I learned that those herbs have a proven antibiotic effect, and only on the bladder, not in the intestinal tract.

I haven not had a bladder infection since.

:toast:

Simplemind, an antiobiotic is a drastic remedy, a bladder tea is a subtle remedy and yet is was more effective, and also cured a lot of other people I recommended it to.
Many bacteria now have resistance to commonly-prescribed antibiotics. Perhaps your brew had a different antibiotic or other effect (or both). One successful treatment might be a coincidence or might be a placebo effect, in itself it's not proof. But this can be investigated by giving the treatment to a large number of people with similar infection and a 'fake' treatment to another large group of people with similar infections. Then we can compare the results and get a more clear idea of whether it is effective or not. In other words, we can do a study :)

But independence of research from the interests of those selling the solution is really important of course.

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:28 am

Hello, Shonin,
Perhaps your brew had a different antibiotic or other effect (or both).
Yes. Certainly.

The antibiotic properties of Bärentraubenblätter have now been proven in studies, although known over centuries from experience. .

The advantage is, that it is unknown that bacteria can develop a significant resistance against those substances, and that sideeffects are minimal, perhaps a slightly unwell stomach if drunk on an empty stomach, which is easily met by eating something prior to the tea.

Also, Bärentraube only works in the bladder, and not in the intestinal tract or vagina, which local bacteria are also killed by antibiotica and can cause candida overgrowth.
One successful treatment might be a coincidence or might be a placebo effect, in itself it's not proof. But this can be investigated by giving the treatment to a large number of people with similar infection and a 'fake' treatment to another large group of people with similar infections. Then we can compare the results and get a more clear idea of whether it is effective or not. In other words, we can do a study
That's all been done many years ago.
But independence of research from the interests of those selling the solution is really important of course.
Of course, they want to make money with it.

Just like the other pharma companies as well.

Question is: Is your remedy harmful or not? That is an ethical issue, that comes into play when you go biz.

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:36 am

Please understand I'm at work and don't have the time to provide you with English evidence. It can easily be googled I would hope if you* (general) question my professional expertise.

Shonin
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Shonin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:06 am

Annapurna wrote:The antibiotic properties of Bärentraubenblätter have now been proven in studies, although known over centuries from experience. .

The advantage is, that it is unknown that bacteria can develop a significant resistance against those substances, and that sideeffects are minimal, perhaps a slightly unwell stomach if drunk on an empty stomach, which is easily met by eating something prior to the tea.

Also, Bärentraube only works in the bladder, and not in the intestinal tract or vagina, which local bacteria are also killed by antibiotica and can cause candida overgrowth.
Interesting, thanks. There are many treatments now used in 'mainstream medicine' that were once herbal, 'folk' remedies, e.g. aspirin.

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:49 pm

Oh, yes, absolutely. Great example.

Willow bark was the original source of "Aspirin, used against rheumatism etc.

The brew from the bark also contained other substances which served as antagonists for the side effects the isolated substance acetylsalicylic acid has.
Aspirin (USAN), also known as acetylsalicylic acid (pronounced /əˌsɛtəlˌsælɨˈsɪlɨk/ ə-SET-əl-sal-i-SIL-ik, abbreviated ASA), is a salicylate drug, often used as an analgesic to relieve minor aches and pains, as an antipyretic to reduce fever, and as an anti-inflammatory medication.

Aspirin also has an antiplatelet effect by inhibiting the production of thromboxane, which under normal circumstances binds platelet molecules together to create a patch over damage of the walls within blood vessels. Because the platelet patch can become too large and also block blood flow, locally and downstream, aspirin is also used long-term, at low doses, to help prevent heart attacks, strokes, and blood clot formation in people at high risk for developing blood clots.[1] It has also been established that low doses of aspirin may be given immediately after a heart attack to reduce the risk of another heart attack or of the death of cardiac tissue.[2][3]

The main undesirable side effects of aspirin are gastrointestinal ulcers, stomach bleeding, and tinnitus, especially in higher doses. In children and adolescents, aspirin is no longer used to control flu-like symptoms or the symptoms of chickenpox or other viral illnesses, because of the risk of Reye's syndrome.[4]
The antiplatelet effect lasts for about a week, pregnant women have lost their babies due to internal bleedings.

I noticed I am getting bruises allover my body for about a week, and other very unpleasant reactions.

I can't take it.

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:50 pm

quote from wiki

Calahand
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Calahand » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:33 pm

Annapurna wrote:
Calahand wrote:"If this type of ignorace weren't so sad, I would have been rolling on the floor by now.

Still 20 years ago, every serious scientist dismissed acupuncture.

Now they have to admit that it works, because we have so much evidence.

In a while from now, it may be possible to explain how homeopathy works.

What any homeopath like me can already tell you today is this:

We know it works, and so do our healed patients.

We are 'tailors'. We don't make one suit that fits all.

We don't treat symptoms, but remove causes. "


Hello, colleague,

I couldn't have said it any better than you! Perfect! :twothumbsup:

Actually this is what I say on my professional blog which is still under construction: http://naturheilpraxisbeuing.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps it should be mentioned here that many people who take homeopathic remedies often don't need any allopathic remedies even in higher age.

Hope we can chat some more about this!
Hi there, I was claiming that there isn't strong evidence (Other than anecdotal) that homeopathy works, i just put what you said in quotations. Sorry if I wasn't clear...

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Annapurna
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Annapurna » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:08 pm

Oh.

Of course YOU don't have much evidence, but others do.

Plenty of first hand experience.

I also think we all deserve the remedies we get.

We may not be able to leave thinking to others, we may need to do some own studies and cultivate some independant thinking.

The clientel of homeopathic counsellors has an overwhelmingly high percentage of young to middle aged academics with high profile careers and superior income.

Kinda speaks for intelligent customers and not unedacated gullible folks who fall for snake oil.

Plus, one shouldn't pass any judgements about things one doesn't know much or anything about. It can only be PREjudice or chewing the cud of others.

Calahand
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Calahand » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:10 pm

Annapurna wrote:Oh.

Of course YOU don't have much evidence, but others do.

Plenty of first hand experience.

I also think we all deserve the remedies we get.

We may not be able to leave thinking to others, we may need to do some own studies and cultivate some independant thinking.

The clientel of homeopathic counsellors has an overwhelmingly high percentage of young to middle aged academics with high profile careers and superior income.

Kinda speaks for intelligent customers and not unedacated gullible folks who fall for snake oil.

Plus, one shouldn't pass any judgements about things one doesn't know much or anything about. It can only be PREjudice or chewing the cud of others.
Sorry, Like i said, no evidence whatsoever, if there was evidence it would have been adopted to mainstream medicine. Now, i am not saying it won't be helpful, it might be helpful, but it may not be helpful too, if you give it thinking that "like cures like" and it works then thats fine, but it is not evidence based medicine.

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Vardali
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Re: About the value of studies

Post by Vardali » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:32 pm

Anna was saying before that homoepathic treatment works with animals.

I know a lot of pet owners who think so too. And to be fair, I have had good success with some non-allopathic treatment of my cats, usually for small things not worth putting them through the stress of a vet visit or in cases when the vet gave up on them. There is a lot of increasing evidence on the benefits of natural remedies (supplements, spices etc.), so it's not always homoepathic. However, I have seen it work sometimes, but I also had cases where no change could be detected. This is why homoepathy is never gonna be proven effective by terms of clinical studies.

Not sure whether I said this before but I think the best effects when using natural remedies and homoepathic treatment works around the immune system, i.e. the "internal balance", so to speak. I wouldn't even think of relying on it for treatment of parasites, broken bones, high fever etc. (even though I know that there are supposedly "supporting" stuff, I would stick to bio-chemical and standard allopathic treatment). However, even homoepaths seem to be divided on that; my vet works closely with a homoepath (who holds a doctorate in bio-chemistry, btw, so science and alternative medicines is not mutually exclusive ;) ). This homoepath actually doesn't support sole homoepathic treatment of serious bacterial infection, fungal infections or parasites with homoepathic means because in her opinions homoepathy is not suitable for that stuff (although it is for supporting the self-healing capabilities of the body). Nevertheless, there are many homoepaths who refuse any allopathic means and religiously believe homoepathic treatment can heal everything (it's just trial and error to find the "right" means). This latter attitude I do find a bit incredible, and I rather appreciate the more differentiating view on what alternative medicine could potentially - or not - deliver.

But as some here have said, it does remain anecdotal in the end.
And hm, that was a bit off-topic now, wasn't it?

:toast:

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