Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:10 am

octathlon wrote:Several posts here are bending over backwards to try and fit a Christian concept into a Buddhist worldview.


Lol not sure who you're referring too, but I could not be further from a christian if I tried.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by octathlon » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:27 am

I don't remember whose specific posts they were, but comparing grace to either ripening of good kamma or dedicating merit seems like just too much of a stretch to me.

:smile:

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:36 am

And what is a Buddhist Chaplaincy? Buddhist priest program? There seem to be several concepts here that are foreign to the Theravada and Buddhist tradition as a whole. Maybe this thread could be moved to Free for all?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:44 am

bodom wrote:And what is a Buddhist Chaplaincy
That would be working in hospitals or prisons.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 6251
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by bodom » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:And what is a Buddhist Chaplaincy
That would be working in hospitals or prisons.
Ahh, that makes sense. Thank you Tilt.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Paññāsikhara » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:08 am

Vipassana1501 wrote:I'm a Buddhist Chaplaincy student at the who's been asked to do some research on comparing/translating the Christian concept of Grace in regards to Theravada practices. I feel like I may be missing something obvious but I keep finding myself going down dead ends. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!
Hi Vipassana1501,

I recommend reading the book Early Buddhism and the Bhagavadgītā by Kashi Nath Upadhyaya

If I recall correctly (it being almost 10 yrs since I read it), it does contain some discussion on the notion of "grace", albeit from the position of the Gita. However, considering that both the Gita and Christianity tend towards the monotheistic, I hope that this provides some grist for the mill.

The "Early Buddhism" in the title should be close enough to you wish for a Theravada perspective.

By the way, whereabouts are you studying Buddhist Chaplaincy? I can only think of two places that have such a program.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:32 am

octathlon wrote:I don't remember whose specific posts they were, but comparing grace to either ripening of good kamma or dedicating merit seems like just too much of a stretch to me.

:smile:
so you have never heard of saying grace then? a common prayer of thanks before a meal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_%28prayer%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by octathlon » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:57 am

Manapa wrote:so you have never heard of saying grace then? a common prayer of thanks before a meal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_%28prayer%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Manapa,
Yes I have, in fact that's the meaning of it that I grew up with. But I had also heard of these other meanings for it, which is why I asked the OP to define it for us, so we wouldn't have to speculate on which meaning. :smile:

I checked Wikipedia which starts off with "Within Christianity, there are differing conceptions of grace. In particular, Catholics and Protestants use the word in substantially different ways."

User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2984
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Goofaholix » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:47 am

Manapa wrote: so you have never heard of saying grace then? a common prayer of thanks before a meal
In Christianity the concept of Grace is extremely important and this is what the OP asked about. The prayer of grace before a meal is a different word and just a little ritual.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Anicca
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Anicca » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:46 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Metta is one thing, but do we really give our merit - the results of our kamma - to others other than in a symbolic way of well wishing? I do not think the Buddha taught that.
I have no wish to argue with you, Tilt - but i had read from others knowing more than i do (but not necessarily more than you do):

- the former Bhikkhu Khantipalo sees it this way:
It is widely believed in Buddhist lands that merits (puñña) are transferable providing that one has a compassion deep enough with others and a wisdom grown great.
- Ajaan Thate states in his autobiography:
One consideration was that he could share the merit gained from such ordination with his dead son and that would certainly enable the son to take rebirth in a happy realm (Sugati).
These beliefs are most likely from the culture, not the suttas. Could not find any sutta support - so you most likely are absolutely right, Tilt.


Metta

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:57 pm

from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:08 pm

>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by octathlon » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:35 pm

Manapa wrote:from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.
Hi Manapa,
I think the above may be a response to my post since it refers to the quote I posted from Wikipedia (if not, please ignore this post :) ). But I don't understand what you are saying exactly, can you elaborate a little-- what is "it" and is that the generic "you" or did you mean I personally didn't like "it"?

:smile:

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:17 pm

octathlon wrote:
Manapa wrote:from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.
Hi Manapa,
I think the above may be a response to my post since it refers to the quote I posted from Wikipedia (if not, please ignore this post :) ). But I don't understand what you are saying exactly, can you elaborate a little-- what is "it" and is that the generic "you" or did you mean I personally didn't like "it"?

:smile:
sorry had connection problems soon after that post!
the first part was for you, as you guessed, but the rest you was more of a general statement, and 'it' can be anything.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: Pali term or concept related to Grace?

Post by octathlon » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:54 pm

Ah, ok. Thanks, Manapa.

:smile:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 35 guests