Breath this... Breath that...

[mikenz66]

"Beginner", "Training wheels"? Surely not.

I think Goofaholix was referring to the Mahasi approach, where, technically, one uses the motion of the abdomen, not the breath, when sitting and the motion of the feet when walking (i.e. in both cases one is trying to focus on wind (motion) element). Walking is half the formal meditation time on the retreats I do. If the abdomen motion becomes too fine I note the tension of sitting up and the touching as the primary objects. And, of course, it's the other objects that come up that are ultimately the important thing in this method. How your mind reacts to what arises, and so on.

Mike

[bodom]

The noting is the main thing, the breath is just something you can go back to when you get lost.

The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.

Mahasi made clear his technique is not an anapanasati practice. The abdomen rising and falling due to the elements is the basis of Mahasi's technique. It is contemplation of the four elements.

[Goedert]

Almost every meditation teacher and book I've come across presents breath meditation as the end all - be all, the one shoe that fits everyone. If this was the case, why can nearly 39 other meditation objects be found in the Tipitaka?

Perhaps the Buddha gave us such a variety of options because he knew, depending on the individual's personality, some meditation objects would work better than others.

I often hear dhamma teachers saying that they focus their lessons on Anapanasati (breath meditation) because it was the method the Buddha himself used to reach enlightenment, and that it can fulfill all 4 establishments of mindfulness at once. But maybe the breath is too subtle of an object for some people to start with? Maybe it would be better for them if they fulfilled the 4 establishments at a slower pace, using one of the other meditation objects?

Did you know that the earliest lay Buddhist communities probably didn't even do breath meditation? Their primary objects of contemplation were likely the 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas), with the first recollection on the buddha being the primary object.

If this is the case, why is it that I can barely find a book, a dhamma talk, ect on something OTHER than the breath?

I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?
- If I wanted to buy a book, right now, on how to meditate on something other than the breath, which book should I get? Does one, other than the Visuddhimagga, even exist?

You can try:

1st - "Refuge: An Introduction to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 5, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... efuge.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2nd - "The Path to Freedom: A Self-guided Tour of the Buddha's Teachings", edited by John T. Bullitt. Access to Insight, May 26, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3rd - "Wings to Awakening: An Anthology from the Pali Canon", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Geoffrey DeGraff). Access to Insight, August 8, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4th - "Stream Entry: Part 1: The Way to Stream-entry", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 8, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5th - "Stream Entry: Part 2: Stream-entry and After", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 8, 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are all good sources for textual learning. I wold recommed you supplement your study with oral instructions, there is such sources:
http://www.dhammatalks.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bhavanasociety.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.audiodharma.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[chownah]

Don't try to be a smart ass with me.

Why not?
chownah

[Vepacitta]

Because there's enough 'smart-ass-ism' on this board as it is Chownah.

Metta - as to your question - there are other forms of mediations - the kasina meditations - one uses the kasina object - usually a large circle of colour - blue - green - red - etc. These are used for jhana mediation - although - the breath is also considered the way to enter into Jhana as well. I'd have to ask around to see about detailed instructions for jhana mediation and kasina objects - although doubtless you could do some googling.

Sorry to hear about your respiratory issues and hope you feel better.

V.

[ground]

I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?

I have been told that breath meditation is mainly for those who tend to be distracted by thoughts, i.e. conceptually "hyperactive" people.
Just to mention an alternative: Mental images of objects, e.g. the Buddha (in the context of shamata meditation).

Kind regards

[Sanghamitta]

Can you give Theravadin soources for the inclusion of visualisation in meditation practice T.MIngyur. Other than Kasina practice which is not visualisation proper ?

[mettafuture]

Ahem Back to subject...........I would still love to hear of a book that deals with the six recollections in an upbeat fashion. It is really important that we can arouse enthusiasm in our meditation object/subject.

Me too.

Anapanasati is a good basic meditation and though it may not fit every foot it seems to fit many. So they teach it a lot. There's nothing stopping you from doing something else, though, go for it.

I'd think that any of the satipatthana would be a fine stand-alone technique. Whatever works.

The only thing that's stopping me are clear instructions. The moment I receive them, the moment I'll be able to resume practice.

The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.

That's not how I was taught. I was taught that everything one experiences should be noticed or noted and the breath is only an anchor, something for you to return to whenever you need to so that you don't get lost.

But the breath is still involved. The abdomen moves because of the breath.

I'd feel much better, and more comfortable, if I could just let the breath happen naturally, and focus on something else.

Here's a really nice chart by Venerable Bodhi:
http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/M ... rances.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't believe the Buddha was a supporter of idle chatter. He didn't give hundreds of discourses, and describe 39 other objects of contemplation for nothing. There should at least be more material on how to directly counter the 5 hindrances.

[...]

They are all good sources for textual learning. I wold recommed you supplement your study with oral instructions, there is such sources:
http://www.dhammatalks.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bhavanasociety.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.audiodharma.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many thanks for the links. I'll look through each one.

Because there's enough 'smart-ass-ism' on this board as it is Chownah.

Metta - as to your question - there are other forms of mediations - the kasina meditations - one uses the kasina object - usually a large circle of colour - blue - green - red - etc. These are used for jhana mediation - although - the breath is also considered the way to enter into Jhana as well. I'd have to ask around to see about detailed instructions for jhana mediation and kasina objects - although doubtless you could do some googling.

Sorry to hear about your respiratory issues and hope you feel better.

V.

Thank you, and I'll give your suggestions a Google.

I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?

I have been told that breath meditation is mainly for those who tend to be distracted by thoughts, i.e. conceptually "hyperactive" people.

I live a very simple life. I'm very patient, and I only have the things I need (+ an iPod touch ).

[Goofaholix]

I'd feel much better, and more comfortable, if I could just let the breath happen naturally, and focus on something else.

That's an interesting thing to investigate. In theory we are supposed to observe the natural breath when we observe the breath whether it is at the nostrils or abdomen, however most people find as soon as they start doing that the breath becomes tight or forced. Investigating that I think reveals something about our attitude towards our experience and the pervasive nature of greed and aversion, which is one of the things the technique is supposed to teach us.

But yes using a non-breath technique does result in the breath becoming much gentler and more natural. I haven't used breath techniques much at all over the past 8 years, it was just a natural progression for me, but that doesn't mean I feel there is too much emphasis on teaching breath techniques.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you choose as a meditation object because the whole point is what is the mind doing, so the simpler the object the better until one gets skilled at observing the mind.

[mikenz66]

I'd feel much better, and more comfortable, if I could just let the breath happen naturally, and focus on something else.

I really don't see a problem. Take the typical Mahasi-style instructions, such as here:
http://buddhanet.net/imol/vipcours.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://buddhanet.net/imol/wrkshp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Essentials of Insight Meditation Practice — Ven. Sujiva. PDF here:
http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_m.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The recommendation is to spend half the time walking, focussing on motion and sensations of the feet. So that's presumably not a problem. Then, when sitting, you can note "sitting" (the tension holding the body upright) and "touching" (the body touching the floor/cushion).

As Ven Sujiva says: (P6 in the above PDF):

In the beginning, the meditation objects met with during a sitting meditation session are:
“Rising” and “falling” of abdomen
“Sitting” and “touching” sensations
Thinking or restlessness
Sleepiness
Hearing of sound
Painful and pleasurable feelings

“Rising” and “falling” of abdomen is first used as the main object
but when it becomes fainter and infrequent, “sitting” and “touching”
sensations are then used as a substitute. Pain and feelings may then
take over during longer sittings. Other less frequent objects are taken
note of and after they disappear, one returns to observe the main
object.

In walking meditation, the same applies with the walking process
as the main object and others (pain, thinking, seeing, hearing and
others) as secondary objects.

In this way material and mental phenomena can be mindfully
observed as they arise and pass away as processes.

As Goofaholix implies, it's quite possible to not use anything to do with the breath as the primary objects. Just use the walking and the sitting/touching.

Mike

[mettafuture]

Thank you for your replies and recommendations.

Mike, I've downloaded the pdfs you posted to my laptop. I'm going to read them during my commute tomorrow.

A little background into my practice history: Over the years I've gotten some great one-on-one instruction on breath meditation. I've learned how to feel the breath at the nostrils, how to follow the movement of the breath at the abdomen, mental noting based on the Mahasi technique, ect. But I have a very strong feeling that I would be able to make better progress if I could focus on something that had absolutely nothing to do with the breath.

My best meditation experiences have been with metta, and with contemplating feelings as instructed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I would like to refine and/or compare my current approach with other approaches, and perhaps add some of the 5 recollections into my practice. My frustration comes when I'm not able to find any material that goes into detail on this. Everything, of course, is about the breath...

I could just come up with my own way to meditate on these thins, but I don't trust myself enough to do that.

I recently found this link:
http://audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1808/

I'm also going to add this to the laptop for review.

[ground]

Can you give Theravadin soources for the inclusion of visualisation in meditation practice T.MIngyur. Other than Kasina practice which is not visualisation proper ?

No, not spontaneously.

Kind regards

[octathlon]

I recently found this link:
http://audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1808/

I'm also going to add this to the laptop for review.

Hi mettafuture,
That link goes to a page with a list of talks and I can't tell which one you are referring to... Can you post the specific name of the talk?

[mettafuture]

I recently found this link:
http://audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1808/

I'm also going to add this to the laptop for review.

Hi mettafuture,
That link goes to a page with a list of talks and I can't tell which one you are referring to... Can you post the specific name of the talk?

All of them.



They all focus on the 5 hindrances. The first set explains the hindrances, and gives a guided meditation on how to counter each one. And the second set goes into detail on each hindrance. I'm sure each guided meditation starts with the breath, but it's still nice to see some of the other objects being explored.

[octathlon]

Ah, OK.
I'm taking 2 extra days off to make a long weekend and I was already planning to listen to some of the recordings on that site. Maybe I'll listen to some of the ones on that page, too.


Edit to add: Some of the ones I am planning to try: http://audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1868/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;