Almost every meditation teacher and book I've come across presents breath meditation as the end all - be all, the one shoe that fits everyone. If this was the case, why can nearly 39 other meditation objects be found in the Tipitaka?
Perhaps the Buddha gave us such a variety of options because he knew, depending on the individual's personality, some meditation objects would work better than others.
I often hear dhamma teachers saying that they focus their lessons on Anapanasati (breath meditation) because it was the method the Buddha himself used to reach enlightenment, and that it can fulfill all 4 establishments of mindfulness at once. But maybe the breath is too subtle of an object for some people to start with? Maybe it would be better for them if they fulfilled the 4 establishments at a slower pace, using one of the other meditation objects?
Did you know that the earliest lay Buddhist communities probably didn't even do breath meditation? Their primary objects of contemplation were likely the 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas), with the first recollection on the buddha being the primary object.
If this is the case, why is it that I can barely find a book, a dhamma talk, ect on something OTHER than the breath?
I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?
- If I wanted to buy a book, right now, on how to meditate on something other than the breath, which book should I get? Does one, other than the Visuddhimagga, even exist?
Breath this... Breath that...
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Breath meditation is very simple, it's unlikely that one would be "not ready" for breath meditation, and if so, what would make the others "easier"? The others involve some sort of visualization or meditation on abstract concepts. See http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/ob ... tation.asp
Anyway if you must have something different, metta (loving-kindness) meditation is pretty common. You might also want to look at the satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html which provides instructions meditating on body, feelings, consciousness or mental objects, though they are often linked back with the breath and is a bit hard to understand.
Anyway if you must have something different, metta (loving-kindness) meditation is pretty common. You might also want to look at the satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html which provides instructions meditating on body, feelings, consciousness or mental objects, though they are often linked back with the breath and is a bit hard to understand.
- mettafuture
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
For you, and some others, but not everyone.nameless wrote:Breath meditation is very simple,
They aren't as subtle.it's unlikely that one would be "not ready" for breath meditation, and if so, what would make the others "easier"?
Not all of them. For example: Contemplating the hindrances.The others involve some sort of visualization or meditation on abstract concepts. See http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/ob ... tation.asp
It's one of my favorite meditations to do, hence my username.Anyway if you must have something different, metta (loving-kindness) meditation is pretty common.
Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization by Analyo is another great resource, but it doesn't work as well as an instruction manual.You might also want to look at the satipatthana http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html which provides instructions meditating on body, feelings, consciousness or mental objects, though they are often linked back with the breath and is a bit hard to understand.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
To a certain extent I agree. It seems the mahayana/tantra looked really hard at the six recollections and came up with all sorts of wierd & wonderful (some not so wonderful) meditations. I consider myself as a Theravada with a small t, I to have looked askance at the lack of modern teachers who teach alternative ways, other than the breath (which I personally find ok). I have read the Visuddhimagga treatment of the recollections and if they can inspire joy in someone, great but they left me deadly cold. One or two teachers have presented alternatives like Ayya Khema and Bhante Vimalaramsi, even Thanissaro Bhikhu presents breath meditation in an upbeat joyful way. I to would love to hear of a book that deals with the six recollections in an upbeat fashion. It is really important that we can arouse enthusiasm in our meditation object/subject.mettafuture wrote:Almost every meditation teacher and book I've come across presents breath meditation as the end all - be all, the one shoe that fits everyone. If this was the case, why can nearly 39 other meditation objects be found in the Tipitaka?
Perhaps the Buddha gave us such a variety of options because he knew, depending on the individual's personality, some meditation objects would work better than others.
I often hear dhamma teachers saying that they focus their lessons on Anapanasati (breath meditation) because it was the method the Buddha himself used to reach enlightenment, and that it can fulfill all 4 establishments of mindfulness at once. But maybe the breath is too subtle of an object for some people to start with? Maybe it would be better for them if they fulfilled the 4 establishments at a slower pace, using one of the other meditation objects?
Did you know that the earliest lay Buddhist communities probably didn't even do breath meditation? Their primary objects of contemplation were likely the 6 recollections (buddha, dhamma, sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas), with the first recollection on the buddha being the primary object.
If this is the case, why is it that I can barely find a book, a dhamma talk, ect on something OTHER than the breath?
I basically have 2 questions:
- Do you think dhamma teachers should go into more detail about the other meditation objects for those who may not be ready for breath meditation?
- If I wanted to buy a book, right now, on how to meditate on something other than the breath, which book should I get? Does one, other than the Visuddhimagga, even exist?
- Goofaholix
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- Location: New Zealand
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.
Both use the breath somewhat, but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.
Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think, so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions. It's easy to do but difficult to master so if you are feeling a lot of restlessness and boredom as a result of the technique then it's working, best to face up to the restlessness and boredom before thinking about changing technique.
I can recommend http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a technique that doesn't use the breath.
Both use the breath somewhat, but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.
Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think, so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions. It's easy to do but difficult to master so if you are feeling a lot of restlessness and boredom as a result of the technique then it's working, best to face up to the restlessness and boredom before thinking about changing technique.
I can recommend http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a technique that doesn't use the breath.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Yep, heard of them.Goofaholix wrote:Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.
Both use the breath somewhat, but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.
Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think, so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions. It's easy to do but difficult to master so if you are feeling a lot of restlessness and boredom as a result of the technique then it's working, best to face up to the restlessness and boredom before thinking about changing technique.
I can recommend http://sayadawutejaniya.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a technique that doesn't use the breath.
- mettafuture
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
I've heard of them too.Goofaholix wrote:Obviously you haven't heard of the two most popular vipassana techniques in the west, the Mahasi technique, and the body sweeping technique taught by Goenka.
Exactly.Both use the breath somewhat,
It kind of is.but in both cases the breath isn't the main thing.
It's great for those who don't have respiratory problems.Anapanasati is the best entry level technique I think
I know...so if you are attending a retreats with a lot of beginners you're likely to get Anapanasati instructions.
- Goofaholix
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- Location: New Zealand
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Then you're kind of doing it wrong.mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
- mettafuture
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Does the Mahasi technique not tell you to follow your breath at the abdomen, note thoughts and hindrances as they arise, and then return to the breath after those thoughts have been noted?Goofaholix wrote:Then you're kind of doing it wrong.mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2 ... /mind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Don't try to be a smart ass with me.
- Goofaholix
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
The noting is the main thing, the breath is just something you can go back to when you get lost. A lot of people find they spend too much time on the breath, I did when I practised this technique, but that's just lazy practice not the intent of the technique.mettafuture wrote:Does the Mahasi technique not tell you to follow your breath at the abdomen, note thoughts and hindrances as they arise, and then return to the breath after those thoughts have been noted?Goofaholix wrote:Then you're kind of doing it wrong.mettafuture wrote: It kind of is.
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2 ... /mind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Don't try to be a smart ass with me.
Your last comment strikes me as unnecessary.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
- mettafuture
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.Goofaholix wrote:The noting is the main thing, the breath is just something you can go back to when you get lost.
Your last comment strikes me as unnecessary.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Ahem Back to subject...........I would still love to hear of a book that deals with the six recollections in an upbeat fashion. It is really important that we can arouse enthusiasm in our meditation object/subject.
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Anapanasati is a good basic meditation and though it may not fit every foot it seems to fit many. So they teach it a lot. There's nothing stopping you from doing something else, though, go for it.
I'd think that any of the satipatthana would be a fine stand-alone technique. Whatever works.
I'd think that any of the satipatthana would be a fine stand-alone technique. Whatever works.
- Goofaholix
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Re: Breath this... Breath that...
That's not how I was taught. I was taught that everything one experiences should be noticed or noted and the breath is only an anchor, something for you to return to whenever you need to so that you don't get lost.mettafuture wrote: The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.
Of course instructions for beginners probably emphasise the breath more as there is a need to establish a basic level of concentration.
In this technique I think of the breath as training wheels.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Breath this... Breath that...
"Beginner", "Training wheels"? Surely not.Goofaholix wrote:That's not how I was taught. I was taught that everything one experiences should be noticed or noted and the breath is only an anchor, something for you to return to whenever you need to so that you don't get lost.mettafuture wrote: The breath is still the primary meditation object. You're only asked to turn a thought into an object if it persists after being noted.
Of course instructions for beginners probably emphasise the breath more as there is a need to establish a basic level of concentration.
In this technique I think of the breath as training wheels.