How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Ben »

PeterB wrote: I have qualms about referring on one forum to another. But I am grateful that Tilt reproduced the above post from ZFI because a current concern I have is the claiming of attainments, and I think Buddhihermits references to the wonderful nature of BEING a Stream enterer or may be an Arahant needed a context.
Indeed. I didn't jump in earlier as I thought Buddhihermit was doing a great job of contradicting his own claim. 'Emperor's new clothes' so to speak.
PeterB wrote:The context of the thread Tilt has quoted from makes it clear that the claim to change traffic lights was not a humorous claim. Furthermore it was in conversation with two other people not currently posting on ZFI who I would suspect may have problems with reality.
I thought the added post from ZFI, even without your additional contextual information, was very telling. But thanks for providing the additional information.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

Green Light thread

BuddhiHermit, you seem to be implying that you are at least a stream-winner in your msgs here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by PeterB »

For anyone who follows the link, just to make it clear that my concerns were not about genkaku who is one of the sanest people I know, nor Linda nor Luz...
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:For anyone who follows the link, just to make it clear that my concerns were not about genkaku who is one of the sanest people I know, nor Linda nor Luz...
We do not need to re-litigate an old thread from another forum, but this msg http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =60#p85127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; above does raise a question or two.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
beeblebrox
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by beeblebrox »

PeterB wrote:I did. You said that you realised that you could change traffic lights by an act of will by doing a mudra at just the right moment.
I thought that this was meant to be taken ironically, like, if you're able to do a mudra right before the light changes, it might as well seem like you're doing it at your will. It's like some kind of synchronicity. What Tilt posted tells a completely different story. :jawdrop:
klqv
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by klqv »

a current concern I have is the claiming of attainments
a more interesting IMO question would not be what to make up people that claim certain attainments but what to make of people that do so sincerely and know how important it is and so are a little bit mad. i don't think pity is the right word but sympathy would be nice... sympathy and some compassionate re-education :lol:


Anyway to answer the original question, I believe that stream entry is incredibly rare in the age and I don't know how the theravada establishment treats these questions but I wouldn't believe it of anyone that wasn't deeply enmeshed in the church. FWIW I associate it with successful cultivation in zen [the ten abodes] or purifying the sense faculties in tendai [the ten faiths]. I'm somewhat open to the possibility that someone like Dogen was like an arhat but maybe just a good writer.

Another question that's a slight derail is about kensho experiences; I think these are related to the stages of heat / summit etc. in theradava; can these really occur within a few months of lay practice :?


Hello btw, I'm new.
Sanghamitta
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Frankly klvq ( welcome btw ) I think that you are conflating at least two schools of Buddhism here.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
klqv
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by klqv »

i don't know that i'm conflating them, i've related them in ways that i've seen in the literature.

except the comment on heat - that's a misunderstanding on my part.
Sanghamitta
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Sanghamitta »

There is no experience in the Theravada which is an obvious corollary to the "kensho" experience described in Zen.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Individual
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

This is an old discussion but if I can add to it: There are no such thing as stream-enterers; that is, "stream-entering persons." This is only a conventional expression, because it is a process of non-becoming, of realizing anatta. Ordinary people don't understand this because they think in terms of self, not understanding the unconditioned they can only know things in terms of this or that conditioned dhamma, with regard to this or that person.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
rowyourboat
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Individual
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
No they aren't
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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kirk5a
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha
Why not?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
klqv
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by klqv »

Individual wrote:This is an old discussion but if I can add to it: There are no such thing as stream-enterers; that is, "stream-entering persons." This is only a conventional expression
Not ultimately a "person" no but am I right that there is "ultimately" a set of skandhas that enter the path of vision?
Individual
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Individual »

There is ultimately no person nor is there anything else that might even seem similar to "personhood." One could use various expressions, but it is still a conventional point of view. Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.

in the path of vision, one does not think even in terms of "this" or "that", because This vs. That is simply a more subtle version of Self vs. Other. This is self, that is other; this is self, those are others. Stream-enterers don't think this way. Overcoming self-view (sakkaya-ditthi) is an obstacle to stream-entry.

In this sense, you could say stream-entry is extremely rare, although ultimately there are no stream-enterers, because it is a process of non-becoming. If stream-entry were something one becomes, it would simply be another realm of samsara to pop in and out of.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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