Visuddhimagga a mistake?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Post by mirco »

Split from: Classic commentaries - where to start? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4340" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But remember:

There are fundamental mistakes in the Visuddhimagga

concerning Right Practice/Effort and Right Collectedness/Concentration.

About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Last edited by mirco on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by Virgo »

mirco wrote:But remember:

There are fundamental mistakes in the Visuddhimagga concerning Right Collectedness (sammaa-samaadhi) / jhanas.

About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
What are you talking about?

Kevin
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19945
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mikenz66 »

mirco wrote: About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Presumably you mean one of the English translations? Those who read it in Pali, Burmese, Thai, Sinhala, etc, wouldn't have this problem, of course (not that I'm in any of those categories...). So it would have zero impact on teachings from the majority of Theravada teachers...

Mike
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by Virgo »

mirco wrote:But remember:

There are fundamental mistakes in the Visuddhimagga

concerning Right Practice/Effort and Right Collectedness/Concentration.

About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Dear Micro,

Your posts are certainly welcome, but just so you know...

"The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature." - from the Guidelines for posting in this particular forum.

Kevin
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mirco »

mikenz66 wrote:
mirco wrote: About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Presumably you mean one of the English translations? Those who read it in Pali, Burmese, Thai, Sinhala, etc, wouldn't have this problem, of course (not that I'm in any of those categories...). So it would have zero impact on teachings from the majority of Theravada teachers...Mike
No, I mean fifteen years after Buddhagosa had published it.

And yes, until now it has the enormous impact, that nowadays 95-98% of all Theravadan teachings,
those who back on the VM, are wrong and won't lead to nibbana.

Be well, :) Mirco
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mirco »

Virgo wrote: "The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature." - from the Guidelines for posting in this particular forum.
O.k. I see. Thanks. I'll shut up in here :rofl:
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by Virgo »

mirco wrote:
Virgo wrote: "The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature." - from the Guidelines for posting in this particular forum.
O.k. I see. Thanks. I'll shut up in here :rofl:
Suit yourself.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by tiltbillings »

mirco wrote:But remember:

There are fundamental mistakes in the Visuddhimagga

concerning Right Practice/Effort and Right Collectedness/Concentration.

About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Would be kind enough to cite your sources for this claim (which would be appropriate for this section).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mirco »

tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Would be kind enough to cite your sources for this claim (which would be appropriate for this section).
O.k., let's start with 'parikamma-samaadhi' and 'upacaara-samaadhi' for instance. (Vis IV The first jhana)
If it is of any interest for the practise, why isn't it mentioned in any sutta?

Next could be 'nimitta' to use as an oject of meditation (Vis IV Detailed instructions for development)
Can it be found in the training instructions in the suttas?

Hmmm...
Last edited by mirco on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by tiltbillings »

mirco wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:About fifteen years after publishing the VM, the Venerables tried to straighten that out, but it had spread too fast.
Would be kind enough to cite your sources for this claim (which would be appropriate for this section).
O.k., let's start with parikamma-samaadhi and upacaara-samaadhi for instance.
If it is of any interest for the practise, why isn't it mentioned in any sutta?
This not answering the question I asked. You claimed that within 15 years after the VM was completed there were those who tried to stop it, and I asked you to cite your sources for this claim. It may be true, but it is news to me. This an historical claim. Litigating doctrine is not what I am asking to happen here. Your counter question can be asked, but in a more appropriate section. Basically, cite your sources for the 15 year claim. That is all I am asking.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mirco »

tiltbillings wrote:You claimed that within 15 years after the VM was completed there were those who tried to stop it, and I asked you to cite your sources for this claim. It may be true, but it is news to me. This an historical claim.
I am very sorry, but I can't fullfill your needs. This fact I heard from a monk I trust during a dhamma talk.
No historical proofs from my side on that. Only blind faith.
I can ask him on that, but I'm pretty shure his answer will be:
"Stop pondering on that. Does it bring you any further in you medition process. Go sit."
Hmmm... I'm sorry.
User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by Goedert »

mirco wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You claimed that within 15 years after the VM was completed there were those who tried to stop it, and I asked you to cite your sources for this claim. It may be true, but it is news to me. This an historical claim.
I am very sorry, but I can't fullfill your needs. This fact I heard from a monk I trust during a dhamma talk.
No historical proofs from my side on that. Only blind faith.
I can ask him on that, but I'm pretty shure his answer will be:
"Stop pondering on that. Does it bring you any further in you medition process. Go sit."
Hmmm... I'm sorry.
Oh friend,

Please don't make mistakes. Go ask that monk right away. Imagine if he is wrong in what he say! If he is wrong you could put other people out of the way by taking further what he say!
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by tiltbillings »

mirco wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You claimed that within 15 years after the VM was completed there were those who tried to stop it, and I asked you to cite your sources for this claim. It may be true, but it is news to me. This an historical claim.
I am very sorry, but I can't fullfill your needs. This fact I heard from a monk I trust during a dhamma talk.
No historical proofs from my side on that. Only blind faith.
I can ask him on that, but I'm pretty shure his answer will be:
"Stop pondering on that. Does it bring you any further in you medition process. Go sit."
Hmmm... I'm sorry.
Then it is not a fact until it can be supported in some meaningful way. Good to know where we stand here.

But, unless it has an actual historical basis, such a claim pushes towards slander, which is not particularly a wholesome thing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by Ben »

In support of Tilt...
Its very important, particularly in this forum, that claims are supported by documentary evidence from the Tipitaka or the ancient commentaries. The reason why some people insist on providing evidence is so that we do not, inadvertently, put words into the Buddha's mouth or propagate an interpretation that is blatantly incorrect or is not consistent with the author and/or the historical evidence.
As has already mentioned, this sub-forum is a place specifically set up for the discussion of the Classical Theravada. The ancient canonical and commentarial literature,as well as the Abhidhamma, are considered authoritative for discussion purposes. The sub-forum allows our members to discuss the ancient texts without the noise of points of view that are inconsistent with the Mahavihara. The sub-forum was set up to fascilitate friendly discussion and to promote a deeper understanding of Classical Theravada, not to silence divergent points of view. Criticisms of the commentaries and abhidhamma are more appropriately conducted in some of our other sub-fora, such as 'Dhammic-free-for-all' and 'Theravada in the modern world'.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: Classic commentaries - where to start?

Post by mirco »

Goedert wrote:
mirco wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You claimed that within 15 years after the VM was completed there were those who tried to stop it, and I asked you to cite your sources for this claim. It may be true, but it is news to me. This an historical claim.
This fact I heard from a monk I trust during a dhamma talk. No historical proofs from my side on that. Only blind faith. I can ask him on that, but I'm pretty shure his answer will be: "Stop pondering on that. Does it bring you any further in you medition process. Go sit." Hmmm... I'm sorry.
Oh friend, Please don't make mistakes. Go ask that monk right away. Imagine if he is wrong in what he say! If he is wrong you could put other people out of the way by taking further what he say!
Hi Goedert :thanks: ,

thank you for inspiration. I asked that Monk and that clarified a lot. I was wrong, he had not said such things.
It was a misunderstanding.

His answer was like: "The VM is not all bad by any means and there is much to learn from it outside of the part concerning the meditation instructions."

Be well,
:) Mirco
Post Reply