Fear of death. Why?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
shjohnk
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by shjohnk »

dude wrote:"Well, i guess ultimate nibbana is not everyone's goal. For my part, I would love to have that dilemna! "

Yeah, but it's not as easy as either of you seem to think. Fear is one the final obstacles.
Sorry if my comment sounded flippant. I was aware that it would as I wrote it. i'm removing that post. I don't think it's easy at all: I'm finding 'myself' so inadequate in many, many aspects I'm not going to criticize anyone for anything they do in their dhamma practice, let alone one who made such great progress. Apologies for my flippancy and i'll be more prudent with my posts from now on.

May all beings be happy and well.
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mikenz66
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi shjohnk,
shjohnk wrote: Sorry if my comment sounded flippant. I was aware that it would as I wrote it.
I don't think anyone was saying that your post was flippant. As dude says, some of the insight stages are reported to be very very difficult and challenging, so it's useful to have particular examples. I think a lot of us have had scary meditation experiences. I had an experience on a retreat once where my body felt like it was dissolving (which was very likely some artefact, not any kind of real insight), which freaked me out so much I had trouble concentrating for about a day.

There is a tendency to think that being monk or being on a meditation retreat is supposed to be some kind of vacation, but the reality of confronting how things are is not always easy or pleasant.

Mike
Kenshou
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by Kenshou »

dude wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Silly goose, he should have kept going!
Easy to say. Somebody needs to work on their humility.
So glad you're here to tell me what to work on. But seriously, it was a joke, nothing more intended. And additionally neither me or schjonk said it was "easy".
siddhartha2010
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by siddhartha2010 »

I am more scared of the thought of parents leaving me. for e.g. i had this urge to end this life before I saw my parents leave.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by Kim OHara »

Yes - the death of others is a loss to ourselves even if (as others have said) our own death may not be.
But we do have practice at dealing with it, when the other goes away for an overseas holiday or something, or when we leave home to go to school or work in another city.
:namaste:
Kim
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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by AdvaitaJ »

dude wrote:If you were looking at a door and had no way of knowing what was behind it, would you not be afraid to walk through it?
And it has a big "No Re-Entry" sign on it!
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai
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ground
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by ground »

PeterB wrote:Its not just Monotheistic religions that talk of hell states. That's a form of social control popular among some Buddhists too.
I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiïóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus from there. Bhikkhus, like a man standing between two houses with doors standing adjacently would see people entering, leaving, wandering and roaming in the two houses. Likewise I see with my heavenly eye purified beyond human, beings disappearing and appearing, unexalted and exalted, beautiful and ugly, in heaven and in hell. I see beings according their actions: These good beings conducting well by body, speech and mind, not blaming noble ones, developing right view, bearing the right view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, go to increase, are born in heavenThese good beings conducting well by body, speech and mind, not blaming noble ones, developing right view, bearing the right view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, are born with humans. These good beings mis -conducting by body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the wrong view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, are born in the sphere of ghosts These good beings misconducting by body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the wrong view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, are born with animals. These good beings misconducting by body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, developing wrong view, bearing the wrong view of actions, at the breakup of the body, after death, decrease, and are born in hell.

Bhikkhus, the warders of hell take him by his hands and feet and show him to the king of the under world `Lord, this man is unfriendly, not uniting, not chaste, does not honour the elders in the family, mete him the suitable punishment.
...


Then the warders of hell give him the fivefold binding. That is two hot iron spikes are sent through his two palms, and two other hot spikes are sent through his two feet and the fifth hot iron spike is sent through his chest. On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell conduct him and hammer himOn account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell take him upside down and cut him with a knifeOn account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell yoke him to a cart and make him go to and fro on a ground that is flaming and ablaze On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell make him ascend and descend a rock of burning ambers On account of this he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him upside down into a boiling, blazingpot of molten. Therehe is cooked in the molten scum, and he on his own accord dives in comes up and goes across in the molten pot. On account of this too he experiences sharp piercing unpleasant feelings. Yet he does not die, until his demerit finishes. Next the warders of hell throw him to the Great Hell.
....

``Bhikkhus, I say this not hearing from another recluse or brahmin, this is what I have myself known and seen and so I say it
Devadåtasutta
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/Pali ... duta-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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PeterB
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by PeterB »

So you accept T Mingyur..that the Buddha taught this, and meant literally that if, for example we disrespect our elders we have hot spikes put through our hands feet and chests ? That is your considered view ?


It sounds to me like classic social control by those who will stop at nothing to exercise it.

Its tosh. We did not crawl out from under the rock of Christianity after millenia in order to buy into its Asiatic cousin.
Every time you see respect of elders or the Sangha or killing arhats and so on mentioned in the context of hell, you can be absolutely sure that they were inserted at a much late dater by those with a vested interest in so doing.
If thats Buddhism give me Dawkins every time.
However I think its self evidently not in the same tone or voice as the profound and radical teaching of the Buddha.
shjohnk
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by shjohnk »

Is this 'Devadåtasuttaü' in the Pali Canon?
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ground
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by ground »

PeterB wrote:However I think its self evidently not in the same tone or voice as the profound and radical teaching of the Buddha.
I think it is evident that people tend to accept what they like and negate what they dislike.

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PeterB
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by PeterB »

I am sure that's true T Mingyur, and that goes also for people who like the idea that the Buddha taught that people who give their mum and dad a bit of lip will have hot spikes hammered into them...there's no accounting for taste.

I notice however that you didn't actually answer my question...do you think that the Buddha taught that...as literal fact ?

Hot spikes...hell goons...all that ?
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Alex123
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by Alex123 »

shjohnk wrote:Is this 'Devadåtasuttaü' in the Pali Canon?

Yes. Check MN129 and MN130 and MANY OTHER SUTTAS.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ita-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... uta-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There is a large chunk of suttas that talk about hungry ghost (there is entire lakkhana-samyutta) and hell realm where one is spiked and burned and so on.


Some pick and chose according to their likes and preferences, which is wrong, IMHO.

Here, friend, as I was coming down from Mount Vulture Peak, I saw a skeleton moving through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks, pursuing it here and there, were pecking at it between the ribs, stabbing it, and tearing it apart while it uttered cries of pain. It occurred to me: ‘It is wonderful, indeed! It is amazing, indeed! That there could be such a being, that there could be such a spirit, that could be such a form of individual existence Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus, there are disciples who dwell having become vision, disciples who dwell having become knowledge, in that a disciple can know, see, and witness such a sight. In the past, bhikkhus, I too saw that being , but I did not speak about it. For if I had spoken about it, others would not have believed me, and if they would not have believed me that would have led to their harm and suffering for a long time. “That being, bhikkhus, used to be a cattle butcher in this same Råjagaha. Having been tormented in hell for many years, for many hundreds of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years as a result of that kamma, as a residual result of that same kamma he is experiencing such a form of individual existence.”


2 (2) The Piece of Meat
“Here, friend, as I was coming down from the mountain Vulture Peak, I saw a piece of meat moving through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks, pursuing it here and there, were stabbing at it and tearing it apart as it uttered cries of pain.”… “That being, bhikkhus, was a cattle butcher in this same Rajagaha

3 (3) The Lump of Meat
20 … “I saw a lump of meat….” “That being was a poultry butcher in this same Rajagaha….”

5 (5) Sword Hairs
… “I saw a man with body-hairs of swords moving through the air. Those swords kept on rising up and striking his body while he uttered cries of pain….” “That being was a hog butcher in this same Rajagaha….”

10 (10) Pot Testicles
… “I saw a man whose testicles were like pots moving through the air. When he walked, he had to lift his testicles onto his shoulders, and when he sat down he sat on top of his testicles. Vultures, crows, and hawks, pursuing him here and there, were stabbing at him and tearing him apart while he uttered cries of pain….” “That being was a corrupt judge in this same Rajagaha….”

12 (2) The Dung Eater
… “I saw a man submerged in a pit of dung, eating dung with both hands….” “That being, bhikkhus, was a hostile brahmin in this same Rajagaha. In the time of the Buddha Kassapa’s Dispensation, he invited the Bhikkhu Sangha to a meal. Having had rice pots filled with dung, he said to the bhikkhus: ‘Aho, sirs, eat as much as you want and take the rest away with you.’…

16 (6) The Headless Trunk
… “I saw a headless trunk moving through the air; its eyes and mouth were on its chest. Vultures, crows, and hawks, pursuing it here and there, were stabbing at it and tearing it apart while it uttered cries of pain….” “That being was an executioner named Hårika in this same Rajagaha….”

18 (8) The Evil Bhikkhuni
… “I saw a bhikkhuni moving through the air. Her outer robe, bowl, waistband, and body were burning, blazing, and flaming while she uttered cries of pain….” “That bhikkhuni had been an evil bhikkhuni in the Buddha Kassapa’s Dispensation…

Samyutta Nikaya - transl. by Bhikkhu Bodhi
PeterB
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by PeterB »

Wrong ? You mean there should be a Buddhist Inquisition Alex ?

You believe whatever ever stories about ghosts and goblins and scary monsters you like. I wont be joining you.
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ground
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by ground »

PeterB wrote:I am sure that's true T Mingyur, and that goes also for people who like the idea that the Buddha taught that people who give their mum and dad a bit of lip will have hot spikes hammered into them...there's no accounting for taste.

I notice however that you didn't actually answer my question...do you think that the Buddha taught that...as literal fact ?

Hot spikes...hell goons...all that ?
Now either the suttas are the words of the Buddha or they are not.

If we assume that they are then why accept some of his words and reject others?

And what does "literal" mean? If he taught literal "nirvana" he also taught "literal" hell.
Or - as an alternative - his teachings are is completely metaphorical ?

But please .. remember I am a Mahayana practitioner ... :o .

Usually Thervadins question my words "Where did the Buddha teach what you are saying?" :P

Now I am asking you: Why don't you accept the Buddhas teachings?

The Buddhas hell teachings pretty much complies with what is taught in tibetan Buddhism about the hells.
Alex123 wrote:There is a large chunk of suttas that talk about hungry ghost (there is entire lakkhana-samyutta) and hell realm where one is spiked and burned and so on.
That is mirrored in tibetan buddhism.


I have been taught that to reject or negate any of the Buddha's teachings is to disparage the buddha dharma. Since I have taken refuge I will never reject any of the Buddhas teachings. Never ever. I may not understand a teaching or it may disturb me and due to my ignorance I may not understand or like what the teaching says but I will not reject or negate it but practice according to its instruction to the best of my ability. That is why it is advisable to fear death if there is an incapacity in one's ethical conduct. Why? Because the Buddha taught so.


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PeterB
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Re: Fear of death. Why?

Post by PeterB »

Then in your eyes I disparage the Buddhas teachings....

In my eyes I reject those parts of the Suttas like hell realms and Mount Meru and Buddhas causing earthquakes that seem to me to run clear counter to science and/or what the Budhha taught elsewhere.
I am not trying to convince you to do the same, and i dont know why you would be bothered in any way by what i think.
Just as i have come to my own conclusions and dont particularly care what you think..
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