Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

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Fede
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Fede » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:34 pm

Oh good grief, semantics!
Pain is pain - yes.
pain is suffering - not necessarily.

Pain is PainFUL, but it doesn't necessarily equate with suffering.

Pain happens,
Pain is felt, pain has a physical manifestation,and sure, it hurts.
Got it.
However, suffering because of pain, is optional.
really, there is a differentiation, and you need to see that.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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lojong1
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:49 am

Mmmkay, if we either use more Pali and cut down on these shifty loaded English words with definitions y'all still haven't agreed on yet; or agree on the English definitions BEFORE continuing discussion in the dark; or help me understand how mutual semantic understanding isn't necessary to get our points across, then we'll be on-topic and easy to follow. So far this looks exactly like the "re-birth" communication breakdown.

Dukkha includes: Jaati, jaraa, byaadhi, maranam, soko, paridevo, dukkham, domanassam, upaayaaso, appiyehi sampayogo, piyehi vippayogo, yampiccham na labhati, and 5-aggregate-clinging.
Why not use the Pali term whose meaning you want to convey? That's what this thread was for. :alien:

Fede says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Alex says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Sunrise says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Aloka says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?

I'm not sure anything else was said, but it sure looked different. Can it really be this simple? :popcorn:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:51 am

Fede wrote: Pain happens,
Pain is felt, pain has a physical manifestation,and sure, it hurts.
Got it.
However, suffering because of pain, is optional.
really, there is a differentiation, and you need to see that.
So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:10 am

octathlon wrote:So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY thread wrong dirty verboten nix nix quit it use the Pali and there's no argument :ban: :ban: :ban: :focus: :offtopic: :goodpost: :oops: :rules:
BIG HISSY-FIT DUKKHANATION AND MILD CURSES
How many experience bodily-dukkha-dukkha without domanassa? Then we can all understand what's being said without waiting 3 weeks for clarification to stay hidden.
:popcorn:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:37 am

I'm sorry, lojong, I haven't learned enough Pali :embarassed: --yet!
I just felt the sentiment of that post lacked anukampā.

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:25 am

:heart: Anukampaa made Buddha teach about dukkha--in all it's forms--and the path to it's elimination? He said we cantake out that second dart--mental pain/domanassa. It is optional, although we still have to live with the consequences of our previous dependently originated decisions, which will likely include more domanassa for a spell.
I don't mind disagreements--even in English--between posters. I just find it unnecessarily messy when there is no effort to ensure that one's "suffering" (dukkha) means the same as another's "suffering" (domanassa) before making weird conclusions about another person's view. Being a Theravada forum, with the new thread already jumbled with "if you mean this, then he could mean this or that, which I might totally disagree with if she implied so-and-so," I figured the Pali would keep things simple, understood or not. At least when someone doesn't understand Pali, they know "I don't understand this" and the confusion doesn't escalate by assuming someone elses definitions at every turn.

If I don't get my way soon I'm gonna pull some freaky smilie voodoo and giggle some more :cookoo:
:popcorn:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:02 pm

lojong1 wrote:Mmmkay, if we either use more Pali and cut down on these shifty loaded English words with definitions y'all still haven't agreed on yet; or agree on the English definitions BEFORE continuing discussion in the dark; or help me understand how mutual semantic understanding isn't necessary to get our points across, then we'll be on-topic and easy to follow. So far this looks exactly like the "re-birth" communication breakdown.

Dukkha includes: Jaati, jaraa, byaadhi, maranam, soko, paridevo, dukkham, domanassam, upaayaaso, appiyehi sampayogo, piyehi vippayogo, yampiccham na labhati, and 5-aggregate-clinging.
Why not use the Pali term whose meaning you want to convey? That's what this thread was for. :alien:

I'm not sure anything else was said, but it sure looked different. Can it really be this simple? :popcorn:

Part of dukkha, for example, is old age (jarā), illness and death (maraṇa). Even the Buddha couldn't eliminate dukkha (dukkha as dukkha-vedanā) connected with the Body in his last life. Sure temporary escape into signless concentration may be an option for some, but not for all. In any case, even Awakened ones do feel dukkha-vedanā.

Only when there is no more re-becoming (punabbhava) after literal death (maraṇa), does ALL dukkha cease.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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octathlon
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:20 pm

lojong1 wrote: Anukampaa made Buddha teach about dukkha--in all it's forms--and the path to it's elimination? He said we cantake out that second dart--mental pain/domanassa. It is optional, although we still have to live with the consequences of our previous dependently originated decisions, which will likely include more domanassa for a spell.
What I was getting at earlier, was that the level of advancement required to "remove that dart" is huge- reaching nibbana perhaps. So it just struck me as callous to say it with those particular words--or with Pali words "domanassa arising from bodily dukkha is optional" ("so get over it", I mentally added when I read it). Note: I don't assume or imply that it was intended that way! It's just my reaction. I would prefer wording like "the Buddha said that it is possible to reach a state where domanassa no longer arises from bodily dukkha." :tongue: I do realize of course that progress can be made before total dart removal, where the domanassa triggered by various things can be lessened more and more as we become more skillful.
lojong1 wrote:I don't mind disagreements--even in English--between posters. I just find it unnecessarily messy when there is no effort to ensure that one's "suffering" (dukkha) means the same as another's "suffering" (domanassa) before making weird conclusions about another person's view. Being a Theravada forum, with the new thread already jumbled with "if you mean this, then he could mean this or that, which I might totally disagree with if she implied so-and-so," I figured the Pali would keep things simple, understood or not. At least when someone doesn't understand Pali, they know "I don't understand this" and the confusion doesn't escalate by assuming someone elses definitions at every turn.
Yes, I've noticed several misunderstandings that seemed to be at least partially based on differing interpretations of terminology. Using Pali could help a lot in some cases, but even then I bet there would sometimes be differing interpretations of the Pali terms. :smile:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Fede » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:13 pm

octathlon wrote:
Fede wrote: Pain happens,
Pain is felt, pain has a physical manifestation,and sure, it hurts.
Got it.
However, suffering because of pain, is optional.
really, there is a differentiation, and you need to see that.
So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.
First of all, I know no adequate amount of Pali. Having three languages under my belt , I find I am experiencing some difficulty in absorbing any more, so I know NO PALI.
I'm going by what I know in English, and what I perceive to be true, for myself, through my own perception and experience.

I'm either extremely inadequate at explaining myself, or whomever is reading, is not getting it.
I'm not talking about the 'get over it' factor.
I'm talking more in context of the 'twin arrow' factor.

Everybody who experiences pain, suffers pain, in the physically sensitive way. I cut myself, it hurts, you cut yourself - it still hurts.
But I don't dwell, lament, complain, bemoan, throw a hissy fit, that I cut myself. I simply think, "That was careless" and move on.
I suffer pain, but I do not suffer the mental lamentation of having suffered physical pain.

if however, this entire discussion relates purely and simply to the right, correct, acceptable and accurate interpretation of Pali terminology, then I apologise for throwing a spanner in the works and will duly bow out, with thanks.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by bodom » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:23 pm

octathlon wrote:So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.


Only the well-taught noble disciple's have the option of not suffering over physical pain.
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is onekind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.


:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:52 pm

Fede wrote: Everybody who experiences pain, suffers pain, in the physically sensitive way. I cut myself, it hurts, you cut yourself - it still hurts.
But I don't dwell, lament, complain, bemoan, throw a hissy fit, that I cut myself. I simply think, "That was careless" and move on.
I suffer pain, but I do not suffer the mental lamentation of having suffered physical pain.
Hi Fede,
A cut? Sure, just move on. But let's not trivialize. There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by bodom » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:06 pm

octathlon wrote:There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.
As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness."

"So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself."
:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

lojong1
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:44 pm

Fede wrote:...if this entire discussion relates purely and simply to...
A: "2+2=4."
B: "Nope, I heartily disagree with that. Actually 2+2=4."

That was just more pain than I could handle. I'm "mad" now. :twothumbsup:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Fede » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:04 am

octathlon wrote:
Fede wrote: Everybody who experiences pain, suffers pain, in the physically sensitive way. I cut myself, it hurts, you cut yourself - it still hurts.
But I don't dwell, lament, complain, bemoan, throw a hissy fit, that I cut myself. I simply think, "That was careless" and move on.
I suffer pain, but I do not suffer the mental lamentation of having suffered physical pain.
Hi Fede,
A cut? Sure, just move on. But let's not trivialize. There is an immense amount of physical suffering/dukkha in the world, that doesn't go away in 10 minutes like a cut-- relentless pain from hunger, disease, bodily deterioration, etc. That's the kind of pain I was referring to in my response.

:anjali:
Please don't be patronising and accuse me of trivialising.
One of the greatest lessons I ever learnt on Suffering - the kind you describe - was from this man.
http://www.korubo.com/TIBETDOC/palden.htm
This was the same man who, once he reached Dharamsala, expressed that his greatest fear during all his years of incarceration, was that he would lose his Compassion for the Chinese.

I know and understand what you are talking about.
I was couching it in terms which would have made it easier for us to equate with.
Since you've upped the ante, I trust my example is adequately explanatory.
:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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octathlon
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:26 pm

Hi Fede,

I really wasn't trying to up an ante. I didn't dispute the correctness of your original statement or intend my post to be a personal attack on you. My reaction was an "ego-feeling-insulted response" about a perceived attitude in the way you expressed it--that word "optional", which I pointed out was only a perception. Sometimes I feel intense compassion for others, but other times I find it very difficult to feel any compassion. I feel guilty about that so I may have been projecting when I reacted to your statement. I wanted to stick up for all those people for whom, in our present state, it isn't optional.

The second one about not moaning and having a hissy fit about a cut, though, I did feel was trivializing the issue. :shrug:

:anjali:

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