How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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nyanasuci
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by nyanasuci » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:55 pm

Virgo wrote:Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.
Read also Ven. Nanavira from Notes on Dhamma: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=69" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And Ven. Kheminda: http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... d-nibbana/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org

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acinteyyo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:17 pm

:goodpost:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Virgo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:03 pm

nyanasuci wrote:
Virgo wrote:Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.
Read also Ven. Nanavira from Notes on Dhamma: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=69" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And Ven. Kheminda: http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... d-nibbana/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I suggest you read this thread (http://dhammasnippets.webs.com/apps/for ... ?page=last" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) including the two articles by Narada at the end.

Be well,

kevin

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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:47 pm

Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked.
"Don't tell anyone that you are enlightened or you will spend the rest of your life proving this to others" )) (c) Ajahn Brahm
Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta
Suttas don't support this point of view. Take for example Dakkhinavibhanga sutta, where it is said that you can make an offering (to gain merit) either to sotapatiimagga, or to sotapattiphala. That means that these are 2 different people and not a single one. Plus don't forget about common passage, where Buddha describes the sangha of the noble ones: "four when taken as pairs or eight when taken as individuals" :reading:

Virgo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:06 pm

Zom wrote:
Suttas don't support this point of view. Take for example Dakkhinavibhanga sutta, where it is said that you can make an offering (to gain merit) either to sotapatiimagga, or to sotapattiphala. That means that these are 2 different people and not a single one. Plus don't forget about common passage, where Buddha describes the sangha of the noble ones: "four when taken as pairs or eight when taken as individuals" :reading:
There is a distinction because someone who has attained the path has not yet attained the fruit. The moments have different functions. The path moment removes the defilements. So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.

Someone who has attained the path has not yet attained the fruit, so therefore there are eight types-- each type of ariya that has attained the path, and each type that has attained the fruit. Again the moments serve different functions. Magga moment is the cause, and phala is the result.

Be well,

Kevin

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:50 pm

Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.
Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.

Virgo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:04 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote:So it is possible to give to someone as they have their path moment.
Sounds like you'd have to have some really fast hands and either the iddhi to know another's mind or a person with it standing over your shoulder to let you know precisely when to give the offering. "Okay, put the food in the bowl.... now! Oh gosh, too slow, the magga-citta was already over."

Defining path fruitions in this way makes giving an offering to a sotapatti-magga person into some kind psychic whack-a-mole.
You can think whatever you like.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:23 pm

Virgo wrote: Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?
Attack? You put yourself out there on a public forum, which makes your claim open to discussion and question. One other person here has publicly claimed of himself stream winner status. It was done in passing in a thread not started by him and not devoted to announcing to the world his new credential. Though I question any self claim, this person's claim was done in a low keyed manner that really did not draw attention to himself; rather, it made a point about practice. After a brief discussion, it was never mentioned again. Markedly lacking the self-promotion aspect of your claim, his claim, for that reason alone, was far more credible than yours.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Kenshou
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:30 pm

Virgo wrote: You can think whatever you like.
Likewise.

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mikenz66
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:37 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Virgo wrote: You can think whatever you like.
Likewise.
Really? Do thoughts not arise due to conditions...? :stirthepot:

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:41 pm

Virgo wrote:]
You can think whatever you like.
There is some question about that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Kenshou
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kenshou » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:57 pm

It's pretty easy to forget.
Really? Do thoughts not arise due to conditions...?

Mike
Oh you.

chandrafabian
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by chandrafabian » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:46 am

From Kevin,
Two points Zom.

First of all, from you quote above you seem to think that stream-entry may be very common. Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?

Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Kevin
Dear friends, I agree with Kevin, it is in line with Abhidhamma and also in line with some meditation teacher's experience.

Mettacittena,
fabian

Virgo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:19 am

Forget this post and this forum.

kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:38 am

Virgo wrote:Forget this post and this forum.

kevin
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Huh? We are supposed to forget this forum: My forums: http://dhammasnippets.webs.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Sign up today? Having looked at it, there is not much there to remember.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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