How common is stream entry?

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Anicca
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Anicca » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:29 pm

Greetings Shonin!

And how would you feel if when asking your 11 year daughter if she is still a virgin she replies:
Shonin wrote:I've never come across a human being who was totally anything. ... If we take it entirely literally then it would appear to be so rare than probably no one on earth would qualify ... Perhaps even the very concept of a strict deliniation between ordinary being ...etc is just a useful guideline, perhaps it's all just a matter of degree. That sounds more like the world I know.
:embarassed:

Metta

Shonin
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Shonin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:41 pm

Anicca wrote:And how would you feel if when asking your 11 year daughter if she is still a virgin she replies:
I would feel that she had an unusually sophisticated worlview for an 11 year old.

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:13 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
PeterB wrote:This sustaining in my opinion is made more difficult by the institutional descent of what is a state of freedom into categorisation and signs indicating status. Stream winner and once returner etc language represents the institutionalisation of the Buddha Dhamma. Its essential radical liberation is rendered less scary by imagined classifications..like prize winning marrows at the local county show. With Gold or red or blue stickers.
Yes. Credentialism -- a worldly dhamma.
Exactly. It is what seems to be the fuel underlying this recent business of people claiminmg of themselves ariya.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:25 pm

Shonin wrote:I may be wrong but I suspect that stream entry was originally a fairly preliminary 'attainment' gained upon the first real insight into Anatta. In modern Theravada it seems to have been built up into something rather rare and remarkable.
Maybe to the first part, but if that were true, I could - heaven forbid - claim such for myself. I suspect that it is a bit more profound that just "a fairly preliminary 'attainment' gained upon the first real insight into Anatta." Obviously in traditional Theravada there has been down playing of the of the possibility of the attainment of jhana and naturally it would follow a down playing of the ability to attain stream entry.

I suspect that, within the context of the vipassana traditions and long retreats, it happens more often than assumed but that it also not necessarily recognized. Also, it is not necessarily a big over-blown shattering experience (of which I would be suspect) and it certainly is not a credentializing experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

lojong1
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:40 pm

I've only met one person I trusted who thought he might be a sotapanna. He told me you should not slack off, even if you think you're a sotapanna.

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Annapurna
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Annapurna » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:11 pm

Shonin wrote:
Anicca wrote:And how would you feel if when asking your 11 year daughter if she is still a virgin she replies:


I would feel that she had an unusually sophisticated worlview for an 11 year old.
I would wonder who taught her this line. ;)

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nyanasuci
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by nyanasuci » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:29 am

Being a sotāpanna is rare thing nowadays. As soon as one becomes a sotāpanna one is possessed of aparapaccayā ñānam, or 'knowledge that does not depend upon anyone else': this knowledge is also said to be 'not shared by puthujjanas', and the man who has it has (except for accelerating his progress) no further need to hear the Teaching—in a sense he is (in part) that Teaching.

Some more things can be found also at:
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the article from the Dummies.com is quite misleading. No need to comment on it since - as it seems - you are aware of it.
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org

chandrafabian
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by chandrafabian » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Dear friends, in my opinion people who achieved Sotapanna may be much more than we thought, I used to have impression Magga-Phala achievement is nearly impossible in this modern day, especially with a lot of amusement around.

But after longer intensive Vipassana retreat, I know my conviction was wrong. Magga-Phala can be achieved by many of us. The problem why we can not achieve Magga is because we start with many assumptions and attached to this assumptions without willing to let it go. In many cases the greatest obstacle is attachment to our own assumptions, not incapabilities.

Mettacittena,
fabian

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Zom
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Zom » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:45 pm

I think it is quite common.
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

**

By the way, one should remember that a sotapanna is a pair of individuals. First is that one who's got phala (dropped 3 fetters), and another one has got only the path (sotapattimagga) and he hasn't yet dropped 3 fetters (though he will do this for sure in that very life). Both are called "sotapanna" or "stream-enterer".

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oxen
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by oxen » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:15 am

I too often reflect on stream entry, and I've also realized that my motives were not as purely intellectual as I once thought.

For one thing, my interest in stream entry was rising from a craving -- one for the emotional satisfaction and lasting peace I imagined myself feeling, if I too were a stream enterer!

I also realized the danger that I might use material I read about stream entry to either disparage myself ("You're still not there!") or to become complacent ("You're close enough!"), depending on the position taken in whatever I was listening to or reading.

Best to not worry about it.
--
Thôan-kia̍t Upāsaka
傳傑優婆塞

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:37 am

oxen wrote:I too often reflect on stream entry, and I've also realized that my motives were not as purely intellectual as I once thought.

For one thing, my interest in stream entry was rising from a craving -- one for the emotional satisfaction and lasting peace I imagined myself feeling, if I too were a stream enterer!

I also realized the danger that I might use material I read about stream entry to either disparage myself ("You're still not there!") or to become complacent ("You're close enough!"), depending on the position taken in whatever I was listening to or reading.

Best to not worry about it.
The truly dangerous thing is not seeing that one's craving can color one's experience to the extent that one may imagine one's self being a sotapanna when that really is not case.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Reductor
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Reductor » Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:The truly dangerous thing is not seeing that one's craving can color one's experience to the extent that one may imagine one's self being a sotapanna when that really is not case.
This is true.

If some 'attainment' leads a person to complacency, then I'd say that they've more likely gone astray than accomplished anything of worth. So regardless of where on the path you fancy yourself to be, continue to developed it to its culmination. Nothing less will do.

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pilgrim
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by pilgrim » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:36 am

One quality of a Sotapanna is that he is incapable of lying to cover up any wrong deeds.
""Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path" ~ Ratana Sutta

Virgo
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Virgo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Zom wrote:I think it is quite common.
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

**

By the way, one should remember that a sotapanna is a pair of individuals. First is that one who's got phala (dropped 3 fetters), and another one has got only the path (sotapattimagga) and he hasn't yet dropped 3 fetters (though he will do this for sure in that very life). Both are called "sotapanna" or "stream-enterer".
Two points Zom.

First of all, from you quote above you seem to think that stream-entry may be very common. Yet, if one tells other that they are a stream winner, they will be attacked. You have verbally attacked all stream-winners that announce themselves in another thread. This seems to be the real trend. So if you ever meet one if you will only attack him or her?

Secondly, the phala moments happen directly after the magga moment, so sotapattimagga lasts for the length of only one citta, the citta that follows it is a sotapanna path moment-- the path moment lasts for less than one second before the fruition moments follow. In fact all of them together still last for less than a second.

Kevin

rowyourboat
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:51 pm

Rough estimates: 30% in a meditation class attain jhana. Stream entry, somewhat less, but not by much. I think it varies with the method. I have heard that practising the U Pandita method ordained people can take up to seven years (according to a U Panditha style meditation teacher). Shorter in methods that use jhana, yonisomanasikara in my opinion. Also short (2-4 months) for people for a couple of people who will have very good faculties in every group of people. Another lot may take upto 1-2 years. After that...I dont have the stats (That is whether the others manage to overcome their problems and progress). But the good news is if you are a faith-follower or a dhamma-follower you are assured of stream entry at the point of death. Just believe in the impermanence of everything and devote yourself to the developtment of the faculties (ie meditate)!

Incidentally anyone who has enough motivation to become deluded that he/she is a stream entrant is not likely to stay that way for long because of their motivation to keep on practising/engaging with the dhamma (unless they have completely wrong view I suppose).

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
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& Upekkha

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