I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Confined to the Present Lifetime
1
2%
Function in All Lifetimes
35
76%
Uncertain What I Believe
3
7%
Kamma & its Effects Irrelevant
0
No votes
Deny Kamma & its Effects
0
No votes
Fie on All Polls
7
15%
 
Total votes: 46

Sunrise
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Sunrise »

Annapurna wrote:And if a perpetrator suddenly dies, like in his sleep, without having suffered an equivalent of the suffering he caused to the victims and their suffering what's up with the kamma that is left?
You think kamma is some cosmic punishment system to equally punish and reward bad and good actions? :rolleye:

If a guy who killed 100s of people later identified his mistakes and lead a good life, that will be it. He will die as a peaceful man. Ever heard of those stories of angulimala? He was a killer in the Buddha's days who killed 1000s of people and later he became a Buddhist disciple and became enlightened. Despise killing so many people, he found peace in life later by rightfully directing his mind.
Sunrise
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Sunrise »

Annapurna wrote:Jürgen Bartsch was a sadistic serial killer who tortured 4 boys to death, by cutting off their fingers ...
Angulimala was a serial killer who killed people, cut off their fingers. Anguli means fingers. Mala means necklace. He apparently made a necklace of human fingers: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el312.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He later became a Buddhist disciple and became enlightened in the same lifetime by identifying his mistakes and directing his mind in the right way.
PeterB
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by PeterB »

Sobeh wrote:
PeterB wrote: So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?
The Bhara Sutta answers you:

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden."

Who or what inherits the kammavipaka? The carrier of the burden.
So lay that burden down. Or better, dont pick it up.
Sunrise
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Sunrise »

Annapurna wrote:Sitting in jail and getting food and talking to lawyers and psychiatrists...does it makes up for the suffering that was done to young people and what was done to their poor parents
You could say the same about venerable Angulimala who died from getting stoned by some who wanted to seek revenge. It is due to his bad actions in the past that he had enemies from whome he suffered death. You could always argue that the enlightened Angulimala did not suffer as much as his victims.
Sunrise
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Sunrise »

PeterB wrote: So lay that burden down. Or better, dont pick it up.
Which is what venerable Angulimala did
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

PeterB wrote:According to the Buddha the PeterB that you are talking to is comprised of five kandhas arising as a result of certain conditions ,and in a state of constant flux.
So who or what gets to inherit the result of action ?
Too fussy over words again. Buddha said the conventional use of "I" & "me" & "you" etc. is perfectly fine. Otherwise we end up with "head-talking" Dhamma, which looks, sounds and is - silly.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
PeterB
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by PeterB »

Perhaps Will we could agree to approach these issues in ways that seem sensible to ourselves. And what is silly to you may not be silly to me and vice versa.
I cannot approach Dhamma as you do. I dont expect you to approach Dhamma as I do.
PeterB
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by PeterB »

rowyourboat wrote:
PeterB wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:It seem there are two views about kamma- 1) that it is dependantly arisen- understandable- cause and effect= if you do something wrong you will feel bad/get punished by society.
2) the kamma is a force, much like gravity and that if you kill, you will be killed in future lifetimes (if not this lifetime). Pondering this can drive a person mad. The Buddha was able to see the effects of actions of past lives using his special abilities.

I know 1) and believe in 2).

Not believing in kamma is bad kamma! All about kamma here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta

RYB
Who is this " you" that will be killed " in a future lifetime " rowyourboat ?
Who is this 'PeterB' that I am answering this question to?
In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.
If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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bodom
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by bodom »

Will wrote:
PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.
If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.
There is a sutta somewhere in which the Buddha states that Arahants use conventional language, and use words like "I" "me and "mine" but do not cling to them. Anyone know which one im thinking of?

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Anicca
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Anicca »

Greetings Bodom, love to make partial repayment!
bodom wrote:There is a sutta somewhere in which the Buddha states that Arahants use conventional language, and use words like "I" "me and "mine" but do not cling to them. Anyone know which one im thinking of?
Maybe DN 9 Potthapada Sutta
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."
or

SN 1.25 Araha.m Sutta
[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
...
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1]
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.
Hope this helps

Metta
PeterB
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by PeterB »

Will wrote:
PeterB: In case you missed it in your haste to put me right...my silly post was in response to the above.
If the notion of jumping on the use of personal pronouns by Buddhists were unique to PeterB and I were motivated personally against "you" (O dear), then PeterB might be right - but such is not the case at all.

The use of personal pronouns is fine and anyone who thinks a philosophical blunder manifests when they are used - is being silly.
That would indeed be silly. I agree with you. I have no problem with personal pronouns. In fact I have no problem with the idea that you and I have separate existences in the conventional sense...in fact I will go further and say that as far as I know this conventional existence is all that exists...but in the course of time I might know otherwise for myself rather than as an idea that rather appeals to me. .
Which still begs the question who or what inherits kamma vipaka...and the answer the Buddha gives is both clear and very subtle. And I would suggest that anyone who thinks that they can summarise it in a sound bite is unlikely to have exhausted its subtlety.
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mikenz66
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sunrise,
Sunrise wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Sitting in jail and getting food and talking to lawyers and psychiatrists...does it makes up for the suffering that was done to young people and what was done to their poor parents
You could say the same about venerable Angulimala who died from getting stoned by some who wanted to seek revenge. It is due to his bad actions in the past that he had enemies from whome he suffered death. You could always argue that the enlightened Angulimala did not suffer as much as his victims.
I completely agree with your point, that kamma and fruit is not a punishment that has to balance. However, I think you're slightly mistaken about the stoning of Angulimala. He was stoned, but not killed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el312.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is no other record about Angulimala's later period of life than what himself said in the verses which follow. These tell us that he lived in such solitary places as forests, caves, and mountains and that, having finally made the right choice in his life, he spent his days in happiness.
I may have mentioned before that a probation officer who I know finds the Angulimala Sutta very inspiring...

Mike
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bodom
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by bodom »

Anicca wrote:
"Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them."


[Deva:]He who's an Arahant, his work achieved,
Free from taints, in final body clad,
That monk still might use such words as "I."
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
...
Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]

Bonds are gone for him without conceits,
All delusion's chains are cast aside:
Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1]
That monk still might use such words as "I,"
Still perchance might say: "They call this mine."
Well aware of common worldly speech,
He would speak conforming to such use.
Those are the ones! I thought it might be in the first book of SN but was looking in Udana and Itivuttaka as well because I knew it was in verse form. Thanks for the help!

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Lazy_eye
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Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll

Post by Lazy_eye »

I believe kamma functions across all lifetimes, but I don't believe it can be used to explain (in a meaningful way) everything that happens to us. Some things are more usefully explained with reference to natural law, physics, genetics, economics and the inherent volatility of life on this planet. Retroactive use of kamma to account for individual people's present life circumstances is very iffy. There were good reasons why the Buddha said the workings of kamma are imponderable.

Is this a revisionist view?

LE
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