Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

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Annapurna
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:08 pm

Alex123 wrote:
DN15 sutta on entering the womb part.
If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, this quote is heavy evidence against abortion. OT, sorry....just struck me... :?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Annapurna » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:11 pm

Sunrise wrote:DN15 is probably the only place where a womb is referred to in the pali out of the suttas that DO is talked about. I would seriously doubt its credibility not only because the DN is anyway believed to be a later addition by some but also because it is drastically different to the other suttas that talks about paticcasamuppada. It looks a lot like a later addition.
I thought you are...didn't you say something to the effect that you as a beginner are asking me something......? :shrug:

Huh...... :spy:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:08 pm

Alex123 wrote: Because it is its nature. It is natural.

It is fully conditioned and out of Self control. It is bondage. Even the most exulted states of consciousness are still not as good and peaceful as total and permanent absence of it. Famous and infamous people suffer in their own way. Good events don't last and we don't have control to prevent bad ones from happening.
Life is not inherently miserable. It is the mental clinging to natural impermanent phenomena that is causing life miserable. The Buddha never taught to escape life. The Buddha attained Nibbana and dwelt in complete peace and free from suffering. Certainly the suttas say that ending unpleasantness is possible in this lifetime while still being alive.
...he gives up all latent tendencies to greed, drives out all latent tendencies to aversion, and completely destroying the latent tendency to measure as `I be', dispels ignorance, arouses science, and here and now makes an end of unpleasantness.

MN 9

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:36 pm

Sunrise wrote: I am not talking about old age, sickness and death in different contexts. I am talking about the womb in the context of dependent origination.
Yes, I understood that. But this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general, and the womb is mentioned in many sutta discussions of kamma and rebirth.

Mike

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:49 pm

mikenz66 wrote:this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general
Wow do I ever feel dopey...I have no idea what's happening here...18 replies and only Alex123 seemed to even come close (maybe, i can't tell) to answering the OP.
No worries, I'll keep listening.
:popcorn:
Last edited by lojong1 on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alex123
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:52 pm

Sunrise wrote: Life is not inherently miserable. It is the mental clinging to natural impermanent phenomena that is causing life miserable.

If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

All feelings (including “pleasant” ones) are ultimately just greater or lesser dukkha. SN36.2, SN36.5, SN36.11.

"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti
SN 36.11(1)

All formations are stressful. Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:04 pm

lojong1 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general
Wow do I ever feel dopey...I have no idea what's happening here...18 replies and only the first one seemed to even come close to answering the OP.
No worries, I'll keep listening.
:popcorn:
Well, did you want to just talk about DO, or about statements about rebirth in the canon in general? It seems to me that discussion of whether or not DO refers to one or multiple lifetimes is a somewhat separate issue from rebirth in general.

Mike

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:22 am

mikenz66 wrote:Well, did you want to just talk about DO, or about statements about rebirth in the canon in general? It seems to me that discussion of whether or not DO refers to one or multiple lifetimes is a somewhat separate issue from rebirth in general.
Stop it y'all that tickles! :clap:
I'm blown away by how lost I am here. I don't see the connection between the OP and Alex123's DN15 womb quotes, or anything afterward, except this one:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Why get reborn into endless nit-picking discussions about the meaning of words? Those from the Tibetan tradition often call it "Reincarnation," those from the Theravāda tradition usually called it "Rebirth." Whatever you call it, its still just more suffering.Image
Yes, dukkha. Why the nit-picking? Because I see more dukkha in rebirth threads than in nit-picking threads, and I'm spending a few [unskillful?]] moments looking at why the rebirth threads are so painful.
Is it because the "it" that they call "reincarnation" and the "it" that they call "rebirth" is sometimes 'rice-pudding' in the Pali? There are what, seventy odd words and phrases that are commonly translated as "rebirth," forty of those from Pali alone?...I don't know, I'm just not convinced it's a good idea to consider them all synonymous.

I'm afraid to enter the evil rebirth threads to find specific examples right now of all the Paali words 'rebirth' is smudging, but puna-bbhava sticks well out...
The English speaking theravadin community is pretty consistent in that: Bhaava = being; becoming; [3 specific] states of being; dependent on clinging, and the chief condition for birth/jaati; etc... Birth would be a fine word to use, except for the fact that we use birth for 'jaati.' Bhaava is not jaati. How can we not expect confusion when we use the same word for two distinct referents--used in close contextual proximity--intentionally and repeatedly differentiated by Buddha?

Alex123 seems to prefer "re-birth" when discussing puna-bbhava. I'm cool with that. If he wants to try and explain the preference again, I'd like to hear it, and about all the other words crammed into re-birth, and that whole womb thing I didn't get.
In Sobeh's Poll--"Which word is the Pali word for re-birth?"--58% said punabbhava. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5309" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do you say "re-birth [re-jaati]" when you are talking about re-becoming [re-bhaava]? Simply because it's been going on a long spacetime?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:31 am

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, I understood that. But this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general, and the womb is mentioned in many sutta discussions of kamma and rebirth.
I am not talking about "many suttas where womb is mentioned". I am talking about DN 15. Please read my initial comment and comment accordingly. I was replying the poster who took DN15 (Mahanidhana sutta) as an example and I was implying that DN15 is a possible later addition. The comment is about DN 15 and may not be specifically relevant to the thread.

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:49 am

Alex123 wrote: If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

Physical pain is just that: physical pain. It doesn't make life miserable in itself. Taking pain as "miserable" is a mental process; an implication of mental clinging IMO.

:anjali:

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:58 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote: If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

Physical pain is just that: physical pain. It doesn't make life miserable in itself. Taking pain as "miserable" is a mental process; an implication of mental clinging IMO.

:anjali:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.


Sariputta: "There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.
Pain is only physical if you remove the mental suffering associated with it. That will not make life suffering in itself. Did the Buddha lead a miserable life after enlightenment or did he dwell in peace born from relinquishment?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
...etc...
:heart: :popcorn:
You could PM each other?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:05 am

Alex123 wrote: What else do you propose?
Like I said, I prefer punabbhava or re-becoming. If you don't like those, how about Arthur Schopenhauer's palingenesia?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:08 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.
Pain is only physical if you remove the mental suffering associated with it. That will not make life suffering in itself. Did the Buddha lead a miserable life after enlightenment or did he dwell in peace born from relinquishment?
Pain is pain. While the Buddha was in peace inside, He did experience LOTS of pain. Ex in DN16.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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