Zen Vs Therevada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote:i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, . . . .
Tradition.

Chinese Ch'an I do believe functions in a Vinaya lineage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by jcsuperstar »

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, . . . .
Chinese Ch'an I do believe functions in a Vinaya lineage.
yes it does
Tradition.
well it worked for them, and not in that way tibetan Buddhists say "i know Tibetan Buddhism is true, because it works" because i have never understood what that meant, what i mean is it has worked as a vehicle for carrying cultural norms as a means of comfort through disasters, wars, etc. it's tied up into what it means to be Japanese, it holds a sense of identity. it's hard to change something like that.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
PeterB
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by PeterB »

Well I was wrong basically.... :roll:

So-On tells me that the Jiyu Kennett folk are required to be celebate but do not and never have followed the Vinaya.
I dont know where I got that idea from...
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Monkey Mind »

A friend of mine is a Soto Zen monk, and her group is traveling to China in the Fall to spend some time in a Chan monastery. Because they are not Vinaya monks, the Zen monks will not be wearing their robes and will be considered lay civilians.

My friend was surprised to learn that entertainment was against the rules, and was amused by the requirement of sleeping in low, uncomfortable beds. Monks in her Zendo store and cook food for themselves (although the emphasis is on community meals.)
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Monkey Mind »

Which reminds me: Gil Fronsdale has a number of Dharma talk podcasts at both Zencast.org and IMS. He was a Soto Zen monk and Abbot of a monastery, but also studied Vipassana for many years in Theravadan countries. Often in his talks, he will compare and differentiate the Zen and the Theravada. Seems like a good resource to the OP.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Monkey Mind »

For example: http://audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/1239.html

[Sorry for my stream of consciousness posts...]
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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christopher:::
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by christopher::: »

Hi all,

I think the strongest correspondance (commonality) of Zen and Theravada is with the emphasis on seated meditation and mindfulness practice. One thing that's puzzled me however is that while Zen Buddhists teach and practice mindfulness extensively they are less likely to talk about it in as detailed a manner as Theravadins. Thich Nhat Hanh is the Zen teacher who has taught mindfulness most extensively, along with Gil Fronsdal. Both make use of Pali sources, so it's a rich area where there are strong similarities in method, as well as some differences.

I was initially drawn to Zen through Shunryu Suzuki's book Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and experiences i had in Japan with the traditional arts, which teach right mindfulness, concentration and effort. That and Thich Nhat Hanh's book Miracle of Mindfulness have had a strong impact on my practice. Now as i dig deeper into Theravadan teachings i'm drawn most to the IMS and Thai Forest teachers, and i think the reason there is that emphasis on being mindful moment-to-moment, with your body, breathe, movements and mind.

What is the difference between mindful walking (on a vipassana retreat) and mindfully making tea, cleaning a Zen temple or doing caligraphy? These are different exercises that seem to cultivate similar understandings and skills.

We may have different ways of talking about and conceptualizing the dharma/dhamma but for those whom meditation and mindfulness are central to their practice we are sharing a huge common ground.

In my opinion.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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bodom
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by bodom »

What is the difference between mindful walking (on a vipassana retreat) and mindfully making tea, cleaning a Zen temple or doing caligraphy? These are different exercises that seem to cultivate similar understandings and skills.

We may have different ways of talking about and conceptualizing the dharma/dhamma but for those whom meditation and mindfulness are central to their practice we are sharing a huge common ground.


:thumbsup:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by m0rl0ck »

Zen Vs Therevada?
My money is on the zen guys. They have those sticks you know.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Kim OHara
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Kim OHara »

m0rl0ck wrote:Zen Vs Therevada?
My money is on the zen guys. They have those sticks you know.
So who needs sticks?
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3127548160/tt0190332

:bow:
Kim
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christopher:::
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by christopher::: »

The real Buddhism is not books, not manuals, not word for word repetition from the Tipitaka, nor is it rites and rituals. These are not the real Buddhism. The real Buddhism is the practice, by way of body, speech and mind that will destroy the defilements, in part or completely...Though a person may never have seen or even heard of the Tipitaka, if he carries out detailed investigation every time suffering arises and scorches his mind he can be said to be studying the Tipitaka directly, and far more correctly than people actually in the process of reading it. - Buddhadasa Bhikkhu
:thumbsup:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Shonin wrote:... However, Zen includes the Nikayas as part of their canon. ...
No it does not.

Though there are Chinese and Japanese translations of the Agamas (not the Nikayas), these are traditionally disregarded in east asian schools as being "Hinayana".

In the modern period, a rare Zen scholar in Japan may look into the Agamas.

In the western version of Zen, quite a few groups use the Theravada Nikayas. This is a new addition, basically never seen in 1000+ yrs of Zen.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

EricJ wrote:Theravadins seem to practice with a wider array of meditation objects and methods (vipassana and samatha as practices with objects such as the brahmaviharas, breath, kasina objects, jhana, etc.). This seems to be a major difference from "single-practice" traditions such as Soto Zen with shikantaza. I don't know whether or not Ch'an Buddhism encourages a wider variety of meditation practices. Would anyone like to comment on that?
Chan buddhism covers a fairly wide range of meditation topics.

This is basically because the word "Chan" in Chinese is used in general for what we call "meditation" in English (along with "ding"). This includes all the schools, not just the Chan school. But even the Chan school will use a broad range of methods.

If it's meditation of some form, then it can basically be called "chan".
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Sobeh wrote:Are there extant comparisons of their Vinayas?
The best comparison of all the Vinayas is that done by Akira Hirakawa. It's in Japanese.
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Re: Zen Vs Therevada

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i used to wonder why the Japanese sangha didn't just go ordain in a Chinese or Theravada lineage, . . . .
Tradition.

Chinese Ch'an I do believe functions in a Vinaya lineage.
Dharmagupta bhiksu/ni ordination, and bodhisattva ordination c/o the Mahayana-brahmajala-sutra (or Yogacarabhumi Bodhisattva Pratimoksa). All this usually fed through the classic east asian Vinaya system of the South Mountain Vinaya School (Nanshan Luzong).
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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