Nondualism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:Hmmm, you're just confusing me even more now. You seem to post extensively with what to me look like non-dual arguments against standard Theravada interpretations of the Dhamma.
Hi Mike,

I don't post much for the most part, as there isn't much need to elaborate further on what other members have already adequately stated. The few threads where I have replied pertain to issues where I feel that I can offer another perspective (still within the historical Pāḷi dhamma and contemporary Theravāda fold).
mikenz66 wrote:If I've completely misunderstood your entire argument, that's OK since I never felt I grasped it very well in the first place...
Pretty simple really: the three N's:

1. Not wavering (i.e. the development of sīla)
2. Non-distraction (i.e. the development of samādhi)
3. Not grasping (i.e. the development of paññā)

Ajahn Chah explains the development of the latter two quite nicely in the following:
  • If the breath is coarse, we know that it's coarse, if it's subtle we know that it's subtle. As it becomes increasingly fine we keep following it, while simultaneously awakening the mind. Eventually the breath disappears altogether and all that remains is the feeling of wakefulness. This is called meeting the Buddha. We have that clear wakefulness that is called "Buddho," the one who knows, the one who is awake, the radiant one. It is meeting and dwelling with the Buddha, with knowledge and clarity. For it was only the historical flesh-and-blood Buddha that entered parinibbana; the true Buddha, the Buddha that is clear radiant knowing, we can still experience and attain today, and when we do so the heart is one.

    So let go, put everything down, everything except the knowing. Don't be fooled if visions or sounds arise in your mind during meditation. Put them all down. Don't take hold of anything at all. Just stay with this non-dual awareness. Don't worry about the past or the future, just be still and you will reach the place where there's no advancing, no retreating and no stopping, where there's nothing to grasp at or cling to. Why? Because there's no self, no "me" or "mine." It's all gone. The Buddha taught us to be emptied of everything in this way, not to carry anything with us. To know, and having known, let go.

    Realizing the Dhamma, the path to freedom from the round of birth and death, is a job that we all have to do alone.
All the best,

Geoff
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mikenz66
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Re: Nondualism

Post by mikenz66 »

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hmmm, you're just confusing me even more now. You seem to post extensively with what to me look like non-dual arguments against standard Theravada interpretations of the Dhamma.
Hi Mike,

I don't post much for the most part, as there isn't much need to elaborate further on what other members have already adequately stated. The few threads where I have replied pertain to issues where I feel that I can offer another perspective (still within the historical Pāḷi dhamma and contemporary Theravāda fold).
Yes, and you have argued extensively against the classical Theravada "conventional"/"ultimate" distinction, as I pointed out the links above.

I have no interest in rehashing the arguments for or against that particular approach. But in making sense out of where it fits in the general milieu of competing interpretations of the Dhamma it seems to me that it is closely related to the non-dual interpretations of Nagarjuna, etc.

However, as I said, I may misunderstand all of if.

:anjali:
Mike
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, and you have argued extensively against the classical Theravada "conventional"/"ultimate" distinction, as I pointed out the links above.
Everything I've said on the matter is based entirely on the teachings of the Pāḷi dhamma and contemporary Theravāda teachers.
mikenz66 wrote:I have no interest in rehashing the arguments for or against that particular approach. But in making sense out of where it fits in the general milieu of competing interpretations of the Dhamma it seems to me that it is closely related to the non-dual interpretations of Nagarjuna, etc.
Personally, I don't find either the realist inclinations of the classical Theravāda or the dialectical bent of Nāgārjuna to be of much value, or in keeping with the soteriological teachings of the Pāḷi dhammavinaya.

All the best,

Geoff
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

Whereas Geoff I find that the realist inclinations of the Classical Theravada are vital to my attempted practice of the Buddha's Dhamma.

:anjali:
Last edited by PeterB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

PeterB wrote:Whereas Geoff I find that the realistic inclinations of the Classical Theravada are vital to my attempted practice of the Buddha's Dhamma.
Hi Peter,

That was "realist," not "realistic." And was in reference to the commentarial conflation of epistemology and ontology with regard to nibbāna. Ven. Ñāṇananda:
  • More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.
But each to their own.

All the best,

Geoff
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nondualism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ñāṇa wrote:That was "realist," not "realistic." And was in reference to the commentarial conflation of epistemology and ontology with regard to nibbāna. Ven. Ñāṇananda:

More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.
Worth considering alongside...

SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
More important than dualism vs non-dualism, imo.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

Geoff I have amended mine to what I originally wrote before it was ( without my noticing ) altered by spellcheck which clearly did not care for the grammar. And yes, chacun a son gout.
Last edited by PeterB on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ñāṇa wrote:That was "realist," not "realistic." And was in reference to the commentarial conflation of epistemology and ontology with regard to nibbāna. Ven. Ñāṇananda:

More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.
Worth considering alongside...

SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
More important than dualism vs non-dualism, imo.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Infinitely.
MattJ
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Re: Nondualism

Post by MattJ »

It seems that my initial impressions were correct: there is no contradiction between Pali and non-dual Buddhism.
http://zenanddao.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nondualism

Post by tiltbillings »

MattJ wrote:It seems that my initial impressions were correct: there is no contradiction between Pali and non-dual Buddhism.
Huh? First of all we seem to have here no clue as to what non-dual Buddhism even is. Did you see above a carefully worked out definition of "non-dual Buddhism?" I certainly did not, but then may be I missed it. Sometime things just get missed. So, if you would be so kind as point out which msg above defines "non-dual Buddhism" and shows that it is the same as what we find in the suttas, I would appreciate it.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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5heaps
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Re: Nondualism

Post by 5heaps »

MattJ wrote:I like Shonin's definition above. I think of non-duality as going beyond distinctions and discrimination. Another way to put it is that all distinctions and discriminations are empty.

Classic dualities include:

Mind and Matter
Mind and Body
Subject and Object
Me and You

Upon investigation, these dualities break down--- i.e. are found to lack permanence and self.
none of those things are dualities :) duality doesn't refer to a relationship between multiple entites that seem to be on the opposite ends of a spectrum.
it refers to when 1 entity causes and inspires mistaken extremes in the mind of a person hindered by ignorance.

so for example: subject and object will always be 2 things - you can only have a subject when you have an object etc. it doesnt mean its a duality just because they are multiple entities. the duality is that the subject-object relationship sets up the 2 extremes of existence and nonexistence in our minds.

the nonduality is not that the subject and object merge (ie. the collapse of multiple entities into 1 entity). nonduality (for a nonbuddha or nonarhat) is the temporary cessation of ignorance and the temporary cessation of the appearance of the 2 extremes in objects. furthermore your mind is basically shut down due to the absence of ignorance which runs samsara (ie. you) and because you are absorbed in the absence of the 2 extremes being true, no impure discrimination of subject and object can occur. same explanation for "me and you", "mind and matter" or any other objects that you might pair together (for example monkeys and lava bubbles -totally nondual according to a correct state of mind ie. a mind not stuck in the 2 extremes)
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