Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Kevin,

From my point of view you are giving a cartoonish view of how practitioners approach study and retreats, and the instructions that teachers give. My teachers have never just said "watch this and that and that's all there is too it". They have explained the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, dependent origination and the noble truths. Not necessarily in some particular order, but I don't find that particularly interesting or relevant. It's simply a matter of which times one studies and which times one puts it into practise.

As you can see from reading the Visuddhimagga there are many ways of approaching each insight. To me the Visuddhimagga is like a collection of Dhamma talks giving advice from the experience of various ancient practitioners, not a linear thesis.

You yourself have now said that with the retreat experience and some study you had a good understanding. Sadhu. That's exactly in line with what we have been saying. You need the combination of both. Perhaps it would have been better to have more study beforehand. Who knows. The sequence one gets teachings is not necessarily optimally organised. But why obsess about it?

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:24 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand,
Was it as long as your actual time as a monk? One retreat is just that, one retreat, and it is at best only a start, and it certainly is not at all a basis for an out of hand, wholesale dismissal of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice, especially when you never even quote him. Oh, well.
You are a monster.
I am a monster. Heavens to betsy, Kevin, now there is a helpful statement that furthers dialogue and mutual understanding.
You know I have shown that it is absent in his method both the soil and the trunk.
No. You have not shown any such thing. You seem to think that just because you assert it (without evidence as to what Mahasi Sayadaw teaches) that you have made a good argument for your position. You repeatedly state that this and that is the Mahasi Sayadaw position, but you do not quote him. Others here have quoted him and shown, with example, what he has taught that does not support your position, which you then ignore. Again, it comes down to formulating a carefully crafted argument, which you, as of yet, have not come even remotely close to doing. You simply are asserting your position and ignoring the reasonable responses given to you by others here that run counter your position.
You know his method... lift your leg, note each section of lifting, if you are looking forward, note looking, when you sit note rising, falling of abdomen, note anything else that comes to mind. Do I have to quote him saying that? That is his method.
That is only a very small part of his method, but you totally ignore what underlies the external method, which in part is drawn out by retro in this msg, which you ignore: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =80#p80879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; And you have ignored both what Fabian and I had to say about it.
You have not shown that he has.
But you are the one claiming - first - that he has not, so it is incumbent upon you to make your case, something you seem unable to do. I have outlined what you need to do. Mike and Fabian have given a nice brief examples of some of the work you need to do. We are waiting.
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm

mikenz66 wrote: But why obsess about it?
Because if it does not match to every little jot and tittle, it is wrong, and that is nothing more than a form of ritualism. In other words, an obsessive adherence to the ritual of the letter and never mind the spirit of the teaching.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:45 pm

The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?

That does not match the directions of how insight is taught in the Wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga, starting with studying the soil and asking questions about it, moving onto using one of five given contemplations derived from suttas to understand materiallity and mentallity, moving on to contemplating that materiallity and mentallity by way of Dependent Origination, right by way of the actual list of Dependent Origination, and so on. End of story. It's not there.

As to there being many ways taught, the text states that each purifcation must be accomplished before beginning the next one. The only exception made is for people with mastery of jhana. People can attain nibbana at anytime, but they should continue through the purifications.

Again, you're lying. I did respond to Retros message, twice now. Once in the post script of on of my posts where I said I feel exactly as mike feels about it (referring to mikes post) and that what mike points out shows it is definitely nama rupa being talked about. In response to you saying "don't ignore retro", I pointed this out to you in another post. Ell-wriggling, lying, distracting, turning things back, all the usual for you Tilt. Still no explanation from you of hwo the the soil or five purifications are actually present in these methods you like, while I have shown how they are absent. Better luck next time with your eel-wriggling. I'm done with you now.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:53 pm

Virgo wrote:The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?
No one is denying this and this has been discussed by your "opposition" and you simply ignore these responses as you have been ignoring retro's msg I keep trying to you to respond to: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =80#p80879" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That does not match the directions of how insight is taught in the Wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga
And this has been responded to, which you continue to ignore. What is coming a across here from you is the ritualism of an obsessive adherence to the letter, ignoring the spirit of what is said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:56 pm

The above post is more of your eel-wriggling. I have shown with quotations how the necessary soil and five purificaitons of the trunk are absent from Mahasi method, you have not shown how or where they are present. Give details as to how each one is present. You cannot, you will not, you will post again though, perhaps saying I haven't addressed retro yet, which I have, perhaps with some other lame excuse. It's exhausted now tilt, come to your sense. I see through you.

Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:13 pm

Virgo wrote:The above post is more of your eel-wriggling.
Not at all. You are simply being asked to formulate a reasonable, well constructed argument, which simply you have not done.
I have shown with quotations how the necessary soil and five purificaitons of the trunk are absent from Mahasi method,
You have quoted from the VM, but you have quoted nothing of direct relevance from Mahasi Sayadaw. On the other hand, Mike, and Fabian have neatly countered your ungrounded assertion about Mahasi Sayadaw with stuff directly from Mahasi Sayadaw, but rather than going through the quotes by Mike and Fabian to argue your point, you ignored them.
you have not shown how or where they are present.
It is not my job. It is yours, given that you are the one who claimed they are not there.
perhaps saying I haven't addressed retro yet, which I have, perhaps with some other lame excuse.
But you have not. His msg gets us beyond your obsession with the ritual of every jot and titte to the underlying teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw, which you are ignoring.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:31 pm

Virgo wrote:The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?
Yes, that's just the basic instructions for building mindfulness and concentration.

Between retreats I study and talk to my teachers in weekly group meetings, if there is a teacher around. So your comments about not having the proper preliminary knowledge are incorrect. During retreats I usually have good guidance from a teacher regarding how to contemplate what I am observing, how to deal with difficulties, and so on.

Of course, since there are thousands of teachers using this approach, various organisations will be more or less organised, and various yogis will have various backgrounds, it would be silly for me to argue that everyone out there is getting appropriate instruction. My Wat is not particularly organised and teachers come and go every year or two so I also would not claim that the instruction I have had is particularly well organised. One has to work with what is available.

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:04 pm

mikenz66 wrote:it would be silly for me to argue that everyone out there is getting appropriate instruction.
And , because it probably needs to be stated, one cannot generalize from the worst example to the whole.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:obsession with the ritual
Obsession or simply following the Classical Theravada Texts?

Quote Buddhaghosa:

while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by
overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the
path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of
the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the trunk. Consequently,
one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge
by learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' after he
has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop
the five purifications that are the 'trunk9. This is in brief.

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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:01 am

Hi Kevin,

The "soil" is the study part. We already covered that many times over. Where did anyone say that one shouldn't study? I don't know any teacher who doesn't teach that material.

Of course the order and level of detail they cover will vary, but, as I keep saying, to me the Visuddhimagga is like a bunch of Dhamma talks organised into some sort of sequence. Not a thesis, or a detailed lesson plan.

Mike

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:11 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:obsession with the ritual
Obsession or simply following the Classical Theravada Texts?
Actually, Fabian and Mike addressed this issue rather nicely, and as usual, you ignored what they said. Following the text is not a problem, but obsessive jot-and-tittle-ish adherence as a way of dismissing another position without acknowledging the spirit of the practice of the other is a problem, as you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chandrafabian
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by chandrafabian » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:50 am

Dear Kevin,

Let me relates one story,
A Muslim woman once came in the monastery in Indonesia, to learn meditation.
In that monastery they are practicing Mahasi method.
First attempt the woman leave after three days
Second attempt, with strong determination, she could see her own thoughts, how it behave
how is the form, how it ceases etc.

Now please tell me I asked you again twice, have you seen this?
Do you think that muslim woman had learn aggregates, bases etc..?

In one of the sutta " a person who studied Dhamma, without realizing it is like a shepherd who counts other's sheep, not the owner of the sheep"
This sutta is brought by The Buddha because of one dispute between practitioner of Dhamma and theoreticians of Dhamma, The Buddha asked something related to theory to Theoreticians, they can answer well, but after The Buddha asked something relating to practicing experience, the Theoreticians unable to answer.
Only practitioner can answer.

Mettacittena,
fabian.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:17 am

chandrafabian wrote:
Now please tell me I asked you again twice, have you seen this?
Do you think that muslim woman had learn aggregates, bases etc..?
Which is an important point that has been made before. The practice opens up the learning of these things in a way that a dry, book alone learning could never do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:59 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:
Now please tell me I asked you again twice, have you seen this?
Do you think that muslim woman had learn aggregates, bases etc..?
Which is an important point that has been made before. The practice opens up the learning of these things in a way that a dry, book alone learning could never do.
You know better than Buddhagosa.

Kevin

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