Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:54 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,

Perhaps you could comment directly on the passage in Sayadaw Mahasi's "Progress of Insight", which is based on his understanding of the Visuddhimagga.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It starts, of course, with Purification of Conduct. I think we can take that as read.

The part you seem concerned about is Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind. Can you point out where this description is substantially different from the descriptions in Vism Chapter XVIII, part of which you kindly posted here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =60#p80816.
1. Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind

Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows...
Mike
First of all, the soil is still missing. It has not been shown where the soil is taught. Second of all, the first purification of mind is not explained. Mahasi seems to think that through bare attention to arising physical and mental phenomena that one becomes clear about mentallity and materiallity. However, it is not gone over by way of any one of the five classifications given in the Visuddhimmagga (given in chapter 18 Visuddhimagga). The mental classifications are not given, the way of reflection on them is not given. The information that if it does not become clear quickly that then one must regard only materiallity excusitvely first and only then mentallity when materiallity becomes abundantly clear is left out. Not only are these things missing, but the way to regard mentallity and materiallity given by Mahasi is actually greatly different from anything actually in the Visuddhimagga. In the Visuddhimagga they are all mental excercises of contemplation, never simple bare awareness excercises. Furthermore, after one understands that all phenomena are only nama and rupa, none of the classifications for looking at the conditions that cause first materiallity and then mentallity to arise are given. That means that there is no mention of reviewing the cause for their respective arisings by way of either Kamma and Fruition, or by way of Dependent Origination in order, etc. Therefore, it is obvious that those things comprising of the second purifcation are completely absent from the Mahasi technqiue. Please bare in mind that Buddhagosa is clear that the purifications must be done in order for them to be effective. The methods given by Mahasi are completely different or just absent in most cases. No one can deny this if they chapter 14 through 22 of the Visuddhimagga where all the information is found.


Kevin

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:35 am

Virgo wrote: First of all, the soil is still missing.
Looking at one book is hardly representative of how, on the ground, the Mahasi Sayadaw method is taught. Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation.
Mahasi seems to think that through bare attention to arising physical and mental phenomena that one becomes clear about mentallity and materiallity.
One does, by direct perception. While conceptual knowledge is important, and can direct one's practice, the reality is that it is the actual seeing in of the rise and fall of the mind/body process that cultivates the arising of insight.

The structure to the practice that is taught by Mahasi Sayadaw moves along the Seven Stages as found in the VM:

I. Purification of Conduct (sila-visuddhi)
The Method of Insight in Brief
II. Purification of Mind (citta-visuddhi)
III. Purification of View (ditthi-visuddhi)

1. Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind (nama-rupa-pariccheda-ñana)
IV. Purification by Overcoming Doubt (kankha-vitarana-visuddhi)
2. Knowledge by Discerning Conditionality (paccaya-pariggaha-ñana)
3. Knowledge by Comprehension (sammasana-ñana)
4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away (udayabbaya-ñana) in its weak stage, involving the Ten Corruptions of Insight
V. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What Is Path and Not Path (maggamagga-ñanadassana-visuddhi)
VI. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Course of Practice (patipada-ñanadassana-visuddhi) (including mature Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away)

5. Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga-ñana)
6. Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthana-ñana)
7. Knowledge of Misery (adinava-ñana)
8. Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida-ñana)
9. Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitu-kamyata-ñana)
10. Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankhanupassana-ñana)
11. Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (sankhar'upekkha-ñana)
12. Insight Leading to emergence (vutthanagamini-vipassana-ñana)
13. Knowledge of Adaptation (anuloma-ñana)
14. Maturity Knowledge (gotrabhu-ñana)
VII. Purification by Knowledge and Vision (ñanadassana-visuddhi)
15. Path Knowledge (magga-ñana)
16. Fruition Knowledge (phala-ñana)
17. Knowledge of Reviewing (paccavekkhana-ñana)
18. Attainment of Fruition (phalasamapatti)
19. The Higher Paths and Fruitions

In the Visuddhimagga they are all mental excercises of contemplation, never simple bare awareness excercises.
So? Again, while mental - read conceptual - exercises can be of value, there is far more value in directly seeing the functioning of the mind/body process directly: in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, etc. is itself enough for full awakening. This is the basis of insight. It moves the practice and the teaching from just being a head trip, which what your reading of the VM is making the VM. I have yet to see a justification for your particular take on the VM.

Also, Kevin, don't blow off retro's point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:37 am

chandrafabian wrote:Dear friends,
Allow me to participate ?
You are very welcome here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:54 am

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: First of all, the soil is still missing. It has not been shown where the soil is taught. Second of all, the first purification of mind is not explained. Mahasi seems to think that through bare attention to arising physical and mental phenomena that one becomes clear about mentallity and materiallity. However, it is not gone over by way of any one of the five classifications given in the Visuddhimmagga (given in chapter 18 Visuddhimagga).
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Of course, as Tilt says, this is just a short summary, not detailed instructions, but it is talking about how the core concepts of Vsm XVIII, how nama-rupa are understood, in a way that seems to me to be compatible.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical
Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows: "The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is another; touching is another," etc. In this way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily process that he notices. Further he realises: "The knowing of the rising movement is one process; the knowing of the falling movement is another." In that way he comes to know each mental act of noticing. Further he realises: "The rising movement is one process; the knowing of it is another. The falling movement is one process; the knowing of it is another," and so on. In that way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily and mental process.
Vism XVIII.14.
Another discerns 'materiality' in his person briefly thus : 'Any kind of materiality whatever all consists of the four primary elements, and he likewise discerns the mind base and a part of the mental base as 'mental'. Then he defines mentality-materiality in brief thus: 'This mentality and this materiality are called "mentality-materiality"'.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical
Such knowledge as this, which analyses in each act of noticing both the bodily process noticed and the mental process engaged in noticing, according to their true essential nature, is called "analytical knowledge of body and mind."
Vism XVIII.37
The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining
mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established
on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being,
is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it
are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'.
Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:56 am

Oh, no. Mike, you are formulating a good argument.
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: First of all, the soil is still missing. It has not been shown where the soil is taught. Second of all, the first purification of mind is not explained. Mahasi seems to think that through bare attention to arising physical and mental phenomena that one becomes clear about mentallity and materiallity. However, it is not gone over by way of any one of the five classifications given in the Visuddhimmagga (given in chapter 18 Visuddhimagga).
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Of course, as Tilt says, this is just a short summary, not detailed instructions, but it is talking about how the core concepts of Vsm XVIII, how nama-rupa are understood, in a way that seems to me to be compatible.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical
Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows: "The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is another; touching is another," etc. In this way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily process that he notices. Further he realises: "The knowing of the rising movement is one process; the knowing of the falling movement is another." In that way he comes to know each mental act of noticing. Further he realises: "The rising movement is one process; the knowing of it is another. The falling movement is one process; the knowing of it is another," and so on. In that way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily and mental process.
Vism XVIII.14.
Another discerns 'materiality' in his person briefly thus : 'Any kind of materiality whatever all consists of the four primary elements, and he likewise discerns the mind base and a part of the mental base as 'mental'. Then he defines mentality-materiality in brief thus: 'This mentality and this materiality are called "mentality-materiality"'.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical
Such knowledge as this, which analyses in each act of noticing both the bodily process noticed and the mental process engaged in noticing, according to their true essential nature, is called "analytical knowledge of body and mind."
Vism XVIII.37
The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining
mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established
on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being,
is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it
are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'.
Mike
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no. Mike, you are formulating a good argument.
Let's be honest, you haven't even read the text. That's why I'm not sure why I am even still debating with you. Example: You still think the soil can be understood through noting things when it is clear in the text that they are subjects that one studies before beginning contemplation and are to be fully undestood before beginning the contemplations of the trunk( there are many quotes like one should "ask one's teacher" about "knotty points" and so on). Only after these things are understood can one approach the trunk.. which Mahasi doesn't even do because he doesn't give the classifications

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mikenz66
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:06 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no. Mike, you are formulating a good argument.
Let's be honest, you haven't even read the text.
I'm sorry that you have to resort to simply repeating that statement rather than comparing the understandings of nama-rupa expressed in the various texts, which might actually be an interesting thing to do, and which I have been trying to encourage by quoting appropriate passages.

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:14 am

Virgo wrote: Let's be honest, you haven't even read the text.
You like saying things like that, but the thing is, Kevin, Mike just gave a mini-lesson in good argumentation, something you have not even remotely approached. Even if I had not read the text, formulating a good argument would present both side clearly and accurately, with a careful discussion and demonstration of one's thesis. As of yet, not done.
That's why I'm not sure why I am even still debating with you. Example: You still think the soil can be understood through noting things
I never said that, which is another of an on going number of examples of your misrepresenting what I have said, which makes it quite clear you cannot be trusted to accurately represent the opposing position and calls into doubt even your representation of the VM's position.
when it is clear in the text that they are subjects that one studies before beginning contemplation and are to be fully undestood before beginning the contemplations of the trunk( there are many quotes like one should "ask one's teacher" about "knotty points" and so on). Only after these things are understood can one approach the trunk.. which Mahasi doesn't even do because he doesn't give the classifications
Well, Kevin, that is what you say, but you have yet to back it up. You are the one making the claim, so it is up to you to show it is true. When you actually present a good argument, I'll more than happy to fully engage it. As of yet it is just you saying a bunch of unsupported stuff.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:19 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no. Mike, you are formulating a good argument.
Let's be honest, you haven't even read the text.
I'm sorry that you have to resort to simply repeating that statement rather than comparing the understandings of nama-rupa expressed in the various texts, which might actually be an interesting thing to do, and which I have been trying to encourage by quoting appropriate passages.

Mike
Mike, my last reply was to Tilt, not you. I know you are looking at the Vism actively to try and understand this. I commend that.

However, Mahasi doesn't teach D.O. in detail (as part of the soil) before his commencing his meditation retreats. This is an important point. Because, as part of the soil, one needs to understand it to approach the trunk. That is because, in the second purification, one of the methods of reviewing the causes of the arising of the nama and rupa you now can clearly differentiate conceptually in your experience from attending to the first purification is by way of Dependent Orgiination. That is just one example of the absence of many parts of the teaching. I also find fault in many other areas.

Kevin

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: That's why I'm not sure why I am even still debating with you. Example: You still think the soil can be understood through noting things
I never said that
Actually you did. In the same post where you listed the 16 insight knowledges and the paths and fruits from the Vsm to try to argue that Mahasi teaches in line with the Visuddhimagga. Of course he says that his thing leads to the sixteen insight knowledges. Who wouldn't? It says nothing about how the actual practice he teaches is in conformity with the truth as laid out in the Visuddhimagga.

Kevin

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:29 am

Virgo wrote:However, Mahasi doesn't teach D.O. in detail (as part of the soil) before his commencing his meditation retreats.
Actually, as part of a retreat one starts to see in a very basic way the conditioned co-production of the mind/body process. it is in that context that the teaching takes place. Rather than a dry intellectual exercise, it is something that is meaningful experienced. Also, keep in mind that paticcasamuppada is a fundamental principle that is not confined to the twelve link formula.
I also find fault in many other areas.
And as we have seen, your fault-finding is not based upon fact.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:31 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: That's why I'm not sure why I am even still debating with you. Example: You still think the soil can be understood through noting things
I never said that
Actually you did.
Actually, you need to quote my words directly. We have seen enough of your misrepresenting what I say for you not to be trusted in what you say about what I say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chandrafabian
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by chandrafabian » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:45 am

Virgo wrote: If you read the whole section on Panna you will see that soil and the first two purifcations of the trunk must come before that. Also, you have misunderstood that section, in and of itself, nevermind the fact that the rest of the soil and trunk are not present in Mahasi and Goenka method.

Be well,

Kevin
Dear Kevin,
First thing first, do you agree there is Arahant without Jhana?
And please specify one by one the soil you need to know about, in Mahasi method.

Mettacittena,
fabian

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:49 am

Kevin, Don't forget about retro's msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Post by Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, you need to quote my words directly. We have seen enough of your misrepresenting what I say for you not to be trusted in what you say about what I say.
Gladly Tilt.
tiltbillings wrote:The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation.
There you have it. And that is why I say you have not even looked at the texts I provide. Why? Because the text shows that the soil comes before any meditation. They are topics to be understood not meditated upon, and you should ask your teacher about knotty points in them. Again... those subjects are the aggregates, the sense bases, the elements, the truths and faculties, and Dependent Origination. Only when all of these are clear can you apply them in the trunk as described in the text.

I was about to go fetch a direct quote form the Visuddhimagga where Buddhagosa says this but seeing that you haven't read my quotes in the past.

Now, please explain to me in brief or in detail where each one of these things are covered by Mahasi and/ or Goenka.

All the teachings on the soil including aggregates, sense bases, etc...

The first purification of the trunk including by which way one contemplates.

The second purification of the trunk including by which way one contemplates.

The third purification of the trunk including by which way on contemplates.

The fourth...

And the fifth...

Thank you,

Kevin

Retros message was already cleared up by Mike. I feel the same way he does that there is no doubt about it being nama and rupa in the text.
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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