What is Truth?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ben
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by Ben » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:40 am

plwk wrote:Let's say if Pontius Pilate (or anyone else closer to your location/time/aeon :tongue: ) asked you, 'What is truth?'
How would you answer this question as a Buddhist? :juggling:
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“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
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but great rivers flow silently.
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:10 am

Ben wrote: The followers of Christ are going to give you a very raw deal if you execute him.
:goodpost:

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sid
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by sid » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:18 pm

Truth is something which is not a lie.

Truth and lie belong to the realm of the human conversation.
For example, consider the following statements:
1) The sun is a sphere. (Truth)
2) The sun is a cube. (Lie)

So a statement is a truth when the right information is conveyed. In other words, truth is a label we apply to right statements.

Just my 2 cents.
-Sid

Moggalana
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by Moggalana » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:48 pm

Truth is the objective insight into the absolute nature of our subjective reality :tongue:
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

lojong1
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by lojong1 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:09 pm

sid wrote:Truth is something which is not a lie.
Truth and lie belong to the realm of the human conversation.
For example, consider the following statements:
1) The sun is a sphere. (Truth)
2) The sun is a cube. (Lie)
So a statement is a truth when the right information is conveyed. In other words, truth is a label we apply to right statements.
I look up to Sid. You can spit in my nutriment anytime.

lojong1
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by lojong1 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:21 pm

Kenshou wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:mu
This is actually a good answer, but it sure isn't a satisfying one.
It satisfied lojong1.
Can intention be added to Sid's 'message conveyance'? Even if you intended an implied 'to me' at the end when you said it, if I don't receive that implied message, its a lie for me.

fabianfred
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by fabianfred » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:38 am

4NT and N8FP :anjali:

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sid
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by sid » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:09 am

lojong1 wrote: Can intention be added to Sid's 'message conveyance'? Even if you intended an implied 'to me' at the end when you said it, if I don't receive that implied message, its a lie for me.
No "to me" was implied here.
Only an observation is required to attest something as truth. As this can be done by anyone concerned, a "me" is not required.
Although the observer's frame of view should be taken into account.

lojong1
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by lojong1 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:32 am

sid wrote:No "to me" was implied here.
Hmmn, something happened here and that's no lie.
Truth and lie belong to the realm of the human conversation?
Wiki says: "A conversation is communication between two or more people."

Kenshou says that 'mu' "isn't a satisfying one."
But 'mu' satisfied me.
If Kenshou meant that 'mu' was not satisfying to anyone, period, then it was an explicit and implicit lie, of the sort mentioned earlier by Sid, i.e. "the sun is a cube".
If Kenshou was aware that someone else may be satisfied with 'mu', but chose not to say 'to me' ["isn't a satisfying one (to me)"] because he felt its implication was obvious, then he spoke implicit truth, not explicit truth.
If Kenshou spoke implicit truth, yet I assume he did not because I didn't hear the words 'to me', then I've lied to myself by assuming that Kenshou denies the possibility of my satisfaction with 'mu'. I've lied to myself in a fast, subtle (unnoticed) conversation with myself.
So I'm suggesting that truth and lie belong not only to the realm of human conversation, but to the more inclusive realm of thought right here and now whether I speak it or not. :popcorn:

Then Sid wrote: "No 'to me' was implied here," and straight away I thought that Sid had assumed that I had assumed that he [Sid] had implied 'to me,' when [truthfully?] I was exploring the possibility that Kenshou had implied 'to me' and good grief that happens so FAST! :cookoo:
The Wiki Self-Deception page is startlingly...gross:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whether someone else is lying explicitly; lying implicitly; truthing explicitly; truthing implicitly; lying explicitly while truthing implicitly or any other combination, it makes no difference to the receiver how it was sent; in every case it can only be received as truth. Is all this synonymous with 'mu'?
What does Buddha have to say about truth?
Dhamma
abhuuta = groundless; not become; not real; lie; deceit.
aalika = contrary; untrue; distortion of truth.
-vaadin [suffix]= one who speaks what is said correctly, telling the truth.
Tatha [adj.]/tathaa [adv.] = in truth; truthful; thus.
sacca (adj.!!) = true; real;

Any notable differences?
Last edited by lojong1 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeterB
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by PeterB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:41 am

plwk wrote:Let's say if Pontius Pilate (or anyone else closer to your location/time/aeon :tongue: ) asked you, 'What is truth?'
How would you answer this question as a Buddhist? :juggling:
I would say " havent you got something more useful you could be doing instead of getting your head all pointy " ?

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sid
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by sid » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:53 am

PeterB wrote: I would say " havent you got something more useful you could be doing instead of getting your head all pointy " ?
:thumbsup:

I don't know why, but after reading some posts I remembered this.
"Bhikkhus, a certain foolish man learns the prose sections, prose and verse sections, the answers and explanation expositions, stanzas, solemn utterances, thus said sections, birth stories, wonderful things, a series of questions and answers. He thoroughly learns the Teaching but does not examine the meanings with wisdom. So he cannot take pleasure in the Teaching. He learns the Teaching for the purpose of finding fault..."
I think the Dhamma or anything for that matter, should be explained in the simplest manner possible.

-Sid

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sid
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by sid » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:05 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Truth is a characteristic of statements. So is falsity.
Experience can't be either true or false, though we can (and often do) make false statements about it.
Reality can't be either true or false, either, though we can (and often do) make false statements about it.
:popcorn:
Kim
Just saw your reply. This is exactly what I was trying to say and you put it in words much better than me. :bow:

lojong1
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by lojong1 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:15 pm

sid wrote:I think the Dhamma or anything for that matter, should be explained in the simplest manner possible.
The person who asks "what is truth?" has already shown a need to 'dumb up' the Dhamma. Simple is fast, almost too fast to catch, and complicated is slow. The simplest simply isn't complicated enough for some people.

Dhamma should be explained in the simplest manner that will be understood.

lojong1
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by lojong1 » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:30 pm

More on the futility of simplicity, from the 'Principia Discordia'.
http://brainwash.discordian.com/files/P ... cordia.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

---"A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE

One day Malaclypse the Younger asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the
Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly
afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said

YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of
Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift
a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON’T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain.
Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with
injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers
imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT
TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!"

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned Herself into an aspirin commercial and
left the Polyfather stranded alone with his species."


In the same book:
"M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don’t know man, I didn’t do it."

And in case anyone thinks this doesn't belong in the forum...
A) there is a quote from Buddha in the book. :mrgreen:
B) there is a sutta where Buddha says that any other teacher--past, present or future--pointing to truth is teaching Dhamma. The language can change.

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EricJ
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Re: What is Truth?

Post by EricJ » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:33 pm

A concept which often becomes an object of attachment.


Regards,
Eric
I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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