tiltbillings wrote:Virgo wrote:
If you wish to continue to claim that Mahasi and the rest are in line with Classical Dhamma,
The problem is that you have not presented his position accurately in his words; you have not shown how the VM you quoted must be read the way you are reading it and you have not shown that the VM quotes contradict Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings. All you have done is asserted it with out doing any of the hard work. You are the one making the claim against Mahasi Sayadaw, so the onus falls upon you to make an actual argument for your position that Mahasi Sayadaw runs counter to the VM, something you have yet to do.
OK. I give a few brief quotes from the Vism to show this.
"HOW IS IT (Wisdom) DEVELOPED? Now the things classed as aggregates,
bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are
the soil of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely,
purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its roots,
while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by
overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the
path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of
the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the trunk. Consequently,
one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge
by learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' after he
has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop
the five purifications that are the 'trunk9. This is in brief.
This shows that wisdom is developed first with the soil and then with the trunk.
Next what the soil consists of is shown. The first thing listed that should be understood is the Aggregates (beginning page 443, Nanamoli translation)
After that the other ones that should be understood are listed and detailed. After the Aggregates they are The Sense Bases, The Elements, The Faculties and the Truths, and lastly Dependent Origination. About this it is said:
Vism Ch XVIII, paragraph one:
"Now it was said earlier (Ch. XIV, §32) that he 'should first
fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about those things that
are the "soil" after he has perfected the two purifications—purification
of virtue and purification of consciousness—that are the "roots"...
2. But it was said above (Ch. XIV, §32) that 'The five purifications,
purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by
knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path,
purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by
knowledge and vision, are the "trunk"
Next comes the trunk section after understanding of the soil.
The first section of the trunk is the first purification. I quote:
"But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one
whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail
in one of the various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the
four elements (Ch. XI, §27ff.). Then when the elements have become
clear in their correct essential characteristics... This is how one [meditator] defines mentality-materiality in detail
through the method of defining the four elements"
The author shows that there are only a few select ways of doing it and describes each one. The next is on the Eighteen Elements. I quote:
"Another does it by means of the eighteen elements. How? Here a
bhikkhu considers the elements thus: 'There are in this person the eye
element,... the mind-consciousness element'. Instead of taking the piece
of flesh variegated with white and black circles, having length and breath,
and fastened in the eye socket with a string of sinew, which the world
terms 'an eye', he defines as 'eye element' the eye sensitivity of the kind
described among the kinds of derived materiality in the Description of
the Aggregates (Ch. XIV, §47).... (and so on)
Or by defintion of the Twelve Bases.
"Another does it by means of the twelve bases. How? He defines
as 'eye base' the sensitivity only, leaving out the fifty-three remaining
instances of materiality, in the way described for the eye element. And in
the way described there [he also defines] the elements of the ear, nose,
tongue, and body, as 'ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base'. He
defines five states that are their respective objective fields as 'visibledata
base, sound base, odour base, flavour base, tangible-data base'."
Or...
"Another defines it more briefly than that by means of the aggregates.
How? Here a bhikkhu defines as 'the materiality aggregate' all the
following 27"...
etc.
However, the text states that:
"But if he has discerned materiality in one of these ways, and
while he is trying to discern the immaterial it does not become evident to
him owing to its subtlety, then he should not give up but should again
and again comprehend, give attention to, discern, and define materiality
only. For in proportion as materiality becomes quite definite, disentangled
and quite clear to him, so the immaterial states that have that
[materiality] as their object become plain of themselves too."
This shows that one should define materiallity first and later mentallity. It also shows that there are only five ways of approaching this level (The only one I did not quote about here is the Brief Definition Based on the Four Primaries but it is similar to the others).
In conclusion, about there first contemplations that make up the First Purification it says:
"The correct vision of mentality and materiality, which, after defining
mentality-materiality by these various methods, has been established
on the plane of non-confusion by overcoming the perception of a being,
is what should be understood as purification of view. Other terms for it
are 'defining of mentality-materiality' and 'delimitation of formations'."
This shows that one must define in this way to accomplish this level. I think these are absent from Mahasi and Goenka.
Now I will give quotes about the second purification. Are the contemplations of the secon purification present in Mahasi or Goenka?
"To begin with, he considers thus: 'Firstly this mentality-materiality
is not causeless, because if that were so, it would follow that [having no
causes to differentiate it,] it would be identical everywhere always and
for all. It has no Overlord, etc., because of the non-existence of any
Overlord, etc. (Ch. XVI, §85), over and above mentality-materiality. And
because, if people then argue that mentality-materiality itself is its Overlord,
etc., then it follows that their mentality-materiality, which they call
the Overlord, etc., would itself be causeless. Consequently there must be
a cause and a condition for it. What are they?'.
4. Having thus directed his attention to mentality-materiality's cause
and condition, he first discerns the cause and condition for the material
body in this way: 'When this body is born it is not born inside a blue, red
or white lotus or water-lily, etc., or inside a store of jewels or pearls,
etc.; on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish"
The ways given are in the text.
One does it by way of contemplating that It's Occurance is Always Due to Conditions. This way:
After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again
discerns the mental body in the way beginning: 'Due to eye and to
visible object eye-consciousness arises' (S.ii,72; M.i,lll).
When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality
is due to conditions...
Another does it another specific way.
"Another, when he has seen that the formations called mentalitymateriality
arrive at ageing and that those that have aged dissolve, discerns
mentality-materiality's conditions by means of dependent origination
in reverse order in this way: 'This is called the ageing-and-death of
formations"
And there are set specific ways mentioned to review it. Again where are these found in Mahasi.
The lists go on and on for the third purification, fourth, etc.
I will skip those so as not to overload people with the reading at this time.
Another quote:
"'After he has perfected the two purifications that are
the "roots", then he can develop the five purifications that are the "trunk" '
(Ch. XIV, §32). And at this point the detailed exposition of the system
for developing understanding in the proper way as it has been handed
down is completed. So the question 'How should it be developed?' (Ch.
XIV, §32) is now answered."
This shows how wisdom is developed traditionally. These things are absent in modern systems. By way of this, one can conclude that they are not in line with how wisdom is developed according to ancient Theravada tradition.
Have a nice night.
Kevin