Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dharma Atma wrote:If we have a look at this question out from more wide prospect that we'll get some more facts to be observed and discussed. We people are only the faint manifestations of the Great Emptiness. This Emptiness is so-called Absolute, the unmanifested Adi-Buddha. It's shunyata. And at the same time it is the only and the ultimate Subject.
The manifested world, Samsara, looks like a lightening in a night sky. It is... and in one moment it is not... Samsara is only one subtle and hardly visible thought into this Emptiness, or Subject, or Big Mind.
Well, continuing the example with lightening, we proseed that we're able to know that the lightening will definitely come to an end... we can even calculate what certain moment it will happen. In this scene it's perfectly known that the lightening will be over. So, Samsara will come to its end definitely. And there are some calculations among brahmans of India. The time period when Samsara exists they call "the Day of Brahma".
But, on the other hand, can we say how any particle in the lightening conduct? Can we calculate if any electron go here or there? We can't, and there's a law in phisics, the law of uncertainty (look, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). So, as a path of any electron can't be foreseen, so how a man behaves in an hour or two we can't say. 'Cause people have a free-will. And I cannot agree with the following:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The fact that there is, objectively, no choice is an inevitable consequence of the principle of causality.But subjectively we do have a choice because we are not aware of everything that conditions us.
The manifested world as a Whole has no free will, 'cause its end and its evolution goes according to certain laws. But - if we're "aware of everything that conditions us" or we are not - people can conduct as they like, and their behaviour will definitely be individual and unique. No one knows where the electron is in a second...
Apart from the non Theravada business, lets adress the principle of uncertainty.

the principle of uncertainty manifests only in small scales. In a large scale like the human scale, the principle of uncertainty is imperceptionable (if this word exists... :shrug: ). Furthermore there are other interpretations of quantum mechanics, such as the de Broglie–Bohm theory which is deterministic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreta ... ohm_theory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dharma Atma wrote:If we have a look at this question out from more wide prospect that we'll get some more facts to be observed and discussed. We people are only the faint manifestations of the Great Emptiness. This Emptiness is so-called Absolute, the unmanifested Adi-Buddha. It's shunyata. And at the same time it is the only and the ultimate Subject.
The manifested world, Samsara, looks like a lightening in a night sky. It is... and in one moment it is not... Samsara is only one subtle and hardly visible thought into this Emptiness, or Subject, or Big Mind . . . .
Adi-Buddha, Great ewmptiness? Products of wishful thinking, and certainly not taught by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Goedert »

Wind wrote:Christians would say God gave us Free-will. Does Free-will exist? Or is it similar to Anatta where it's only an illusion?
This is a difficult quenstion to answer. Because free will can imply religious, sientific and ethical aplications.

We have to conceit free will first.

We can say that free will is the purported right of agents to make choices and actions free from any constraints.

In catholic relegion the term Free will imput that god does not assert his power over the choices and actions of any being.

So we can asked about it:
- Determinism exist?
- Does free will exist?
Or
- When one make choices or actions, could he has any physical constraints?
- When one make choices or actions, could he has any social constraints?
- When one amke choices or actions, could he has any psychological constraints?

To have a clue to this questions this quotes are necessary:
Determinism is roughly defined as the view that all current and future events are causally necessitated by past events combined with the laws of nature. Neither determinism nor its opposite, indeterminism, are positions in the debate about free will.
Free Will in Buddhism:
Buddhism accepts both freedom and determinism (or something similar to it), but rejects the idea of an agent, and thus the idea that freedom is a free will belonging to an agent. According to the Buddha, "There is free action, there is retribution, but I see no agent that passes out from one set of momentary elements into another one, except the [connection] of those elements [aggregates]." Buddhists believe in neither absolute free will, nor determinism. It preaches a middle doctrine, named paticcasamuppāda in Pali, which is often translated as "inter-dependent arising". It is part of the theory of karma in Buddhism. The concept of karma in Buddhism is different from the notion of karma in Hinduism. In Buddhism, the idea of karma is much less deterministic. This Buddhist notion of karma is primarily focused on the cause and effect of moral actions in this life, while in Hinduism the concept of karma is more often connected with determining one's destiny in future lives.

In Buddhism it is taught that the idea of absolute freedom of choice (i.e. that any human being could be completely free to make any choice) is foolish, because it denies the reality of one's physical needs and circumstances. Equally incorrect is the idea that we have no choice in life or that our lives are pre-determined. To deny freedom would be to deny the efforts of Buddhists to make moral progress (through our capacity to freely choose compassionate action). Pubbekatahetuvada, the belief that all happiness and suffering arise from previous actions, is considered a wrong view according to Buddhist doctrines. Because Buddhists also reject agenthood, the traditional compatibilist strategies are closed to them as well. Instead, the Buddhist philosophical strategy is to examine the metaphysics of causality. Ancient India had many heated arguments about the nature of causality with Jains, Nyayists, Samkhyists, Cārvākans, and Buddhists all taking slightly different lines. In many ways, the Buddhist position is closer to a theory of "conditionality" than a theory of "causality", especially as it is expounded by Nagarjuna in the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā.
Actually our friends Vajrayana may have a different view. With the role of Samanthabadra and Samanthabadri.

In "my" opinion I prefer to be with the view of Paticcasamupada and wold state the following:

"Either free-will or non-free-will, but a subtle freedom that is on the supramundane realesation".

You can find more in Wiki Philosphy Portal
User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by acinteyyo »

What is free-will?
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Goedert »

Dharma Atma wrote:If we have a look at this question out from more wide prospect that we'll get some more facts to be observed and discussed. We people are only the faint manifestations of the Great Emptiness. This Emptiness is so-called Absolute, the unmanifested Adi-Buddha. It's shunyata. And at the same time it is the only and the ultimate Subject.
The manifested world, Samsara, looks like a lightening in a night sky. It is... and in one moment it is not... Samsara is only one subtle and hardly visible thought into this Emptiness, or Subject, or Big Mind.
Well, continuing the example with lightening, we proseed that we're able to know that the lightening will definitely come to an end... we can even calculate what certain moment it will happen. In this scene it's perfectly known that the lightening will be over. So, Samsara will come to its end definitely. And there are some calculations among brahmans of India. The time period when Samsara exists they call "the Day of Brahma".
But, on the other hand, can we say how any particle in the lightening conduct? Can we calculate if any electron go here or there? We can't, and there's a law in phisics, the law of uncertainty (look, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). So, as a path of any electron can't be foreseen, so how a man behaves in an hour or two we can't say. 'Cause people have a free-will. And I cannot agree with the following:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The fact that there is, objectively, no choice is an inevitable consequence of the principle of causality.But subjectively we do have a choice because we are not aware of everything that conditions us.
The manifested world as a Whole has no free will, 'cause its end and its evolution goes according to certain laws. But - if we're "aware of everything that conditions us" or we are not - people can conduct as they like, and their behaviour will definitely be individual and unique. No one knows where the electron is in a second...
Hello friend, Padmasambhava was a Shivaist before turn to buddhism so the things got mixed-up. When one want to post Vajrayana point of view an concepts in a Theravada Forum, one must also put Hindu points of view. Because Yogic culture was different from the Sramana culture in ancient India. Not doing so, one will get a misunderstanding answer. Because this is not the early buddhist terms thought by the Gautama Sakyamuni Buddha.

See:
In Kashmir Shaivism
The concept of free will plays a central role in Kashmir Shaivism. Known under the technical name of svātantrya it is the cause of the creation of the universe - a primordial force that stirs up the absolute and manifests the world inside the supreme consciousness of Śiva.

Svātantrya is the sole property of God, all the rest of conscious subjects being co-participant in various degrees to the divine sovereignty. Humans have a limited degree of free will based on their level of consciousness. Ultimately, Kashmir Shaivism as a monistic idealist philosophical system views all subjects to be identical - "all are one" - and that one is Śiva, the supreme consciousness. Thus, all subjects have free will but they can be ignorant of this power. Ignorance too is a force projected by svātantrya itself upon the creation and can only be removed by svātantrya.

A function of svātantrya is that of granting divine grace - śaktipāt. In this philosophical system spiritual liberation is not accessible by mere effort, but dependent only on the will of God. Thus, the disciple can only surrender himself and wait for the divine grace to come down and eliminate the limitations that imprison his consciousness.

Causality in Kashmir Shaivism is considered to be created by Svātantrya along with the universe. Thus there can be no contradiction, limitation or rule to force Śiva to act one way or the other. Svātantrya always exists beyond the limiting shield of cosmic illusion, māyā.
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will# ... r_Shaivism
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

I find it slightly puzzling that a thread discussing freewill ( ! ) on a Theravada Forum has turned into a discussion about Vajrayana notions and the possible influence pf Kashmiri Shaivism on these notions. I know this is the lounge but......
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:I find it slightly puzzling that a thread discussing freewill ( ! ) on a Theravada Forum has turned into a discussion about Vajrayana notions and the possible influence pf Kashmiri Shaivism on these notions. I know this is the lounge but......
I agree.

Back to the topic, unless you - whomever you are - feel that your are compelled to act otherwise, which means I feel compelled to delete the off-topic msgs.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Dharma Atma
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:40 pm
Location: Voronezh, Russia

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Dharma Atma »

cooran wrote:Could you provide traceable links to the Suttas or Abhidhamma which will support what you have stated above?
I could have, but Buddha said that even He said something and it goes in contradiction with common sense, we must follow common sense. So, I don't think it is important where I or you take this or that. But I can say it: I wrote the combined viewpoint taken from Lankavatara Sutra, partially from the Diamond Sutra, such ideas are also situated in such books as The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky, and especially in No Boundary by Ken Wilber, known buddhist.
Modus.Ponens wrote:Apart from the non Theravada business, lets adress the principle of uncertainty.the principle of uncertainty manifests only in small scales.
I didn't mean that we have to explore physics now! :clap: It was just a metaphore...
tiltbillings wrote:Adi-Buddha, Great ewmptiness? Products of wishful thinking, and certainly not taught by the Buddha.
:rofl: Shunyata was not taught by the Buddha? You're joking maybe... He did, and did it often and everywhere.
Truth is not Theravada or non-Theravada. We must go along common sense. C'est tout! And I haven't seen any real facts against the viewpoint I wrote above (with my poor English... :cry: )...
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

Dharma Atma, The Theravada does not in general recognize The Lankavatara Sutra or The Diamond Sutra as representing the teachings of the Buddha. Neither Wilbur or Blavatsky are Buddhist teachers.
The Shunyata doctrine is not taught in the Theravada.
There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel. It might be the case that you will find discussion there more suited to your point of view.
Snowmelt
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Snowmelt »

tiltbillings wrote:
Shonin wrote:
Phenomena just are. 'Me' being or not being in control doesn't come into it. It's a kind of clinging. The Buddhist practice is to see that and thus let go.
Except the reality is that until we have the insight to see it as it is, we need to work with the "me," which is the purpose of the precepts, of sitting practice, etc. It is a matter of starting where we are. We might want to tell the "constructed self" where to get off, to put it in its place, but it really does not work that way. Being recalcitrant, stubborn, and persistent, we have to work with it, cultivate it with the precepts, thin its walls with generosity and metta, to gain insight into it via mindfulness.
Or is it the case that thoughts about this topic are to be let go of, not to be pursued and elaborated on? Considering such questions as whether the universe is finite or infinite do not lead toward Nibbana. Is the question of free will another such distraction from the path?
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

I cant speak for the mods Snowmelt but in my view there is nothing wrong with the topic, but on a forum which which exists "for discussion of the Dhamma of the Theravada " discussion should I would suggest happen within the parameters set by that Theravadin Dhamma.
User avatar
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Goedert »

Snowmelt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Shonin wrote:
Phenomena just are. 'Me' being or not being in control doesn't come into it. It's a kind of clinging. The Buddhist practice is to see that and thus let go.
Except the reality is that until we have the insight to see it as it is, we need to work with the "me," which is the purpose of the precepts, of sitting practice, etc. It is a matter of starting where we are. We might want to tell the "constructed self" where to get off, to put it in its place, but it really does not work that way. Being recalcitrant, stubborn, and persistent, we have to work with it, cultivate it with the precepts, thin its walls with generosity and metta, to gain insight into it via mindfulness.
Or is it the case that thoughts about this topic are to be let go of, not to be pursued and elaborated on? Considering such questions as whether the universe is finite or infinite do not lead toward Nibbana. Is the question of free will another such distraction from the path?
Friend,

It has to do with dhamma. Because free-will directs involve Dukkha, Anicca, Anatta and indirect involves Paticcasamuppada. One can gain insight from this contemplation.

Any topic, including the Dhamma, that some relate to it in a ego-clinging way, of course it will be a barrier to nibbana.

See what you have said:

The universe is finite or infinite do not lead toward Nibbana. (Yes, but the universe exist).

The question to topic is free-will exist or not exist. (So, we are discussin different things here. We are not discussing if free-will is infinite or not infinite, mesuring it).

This is called Non sequitur Falacy because your conclusion can't be sustained by it premisses.

Kind regards.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by chownah »

AS always, like an echo from the past.....the Buddha advises to have no doctrine of self whatever....

I guess that what this means is that if you have to have some belief in some "self" which has or exercises this "free will" thing then it is probably best to just pass on conceptualizing this "free-will" thing altogether.......is it important to ask or answer this question?.....it can in principle not be proved one way or the other anyway....there can never be a true resolution of the issue.
chownah
User avatar
Dharma Atma
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:40 pm
Location: Voronezh, Russia

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Dharma Atma »

PeterB wrote:The Theravada does not in general recognize The Lankavatara Sutra or The Diamond Sutra as representing the teachings of the Buddha.
Really? Didn't know that.
PeterB wrote:There is a sister forum to this one called Dharma Wheel.
Thank you. Do you mean this - http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ? I'll visit it :smile: But as I had stated before (the thread "Hi from Russia") I am here with purpose to know the point of view of Theravada.
PeterB wrote:The Shunyata doctrine is not taught in the Theravada.
Does Theravada have to contradict to the common sense? I guess, it doesn't. So it'd be very interesting to know why Theravada rejects the Emptiness, the empty space in which all the objects exist? Anyone can explain (by logic... not by writings)?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:AS always, like an echo from the past.....the Buddha advises to have no doctrine of self whatever....

I guess that what this means is that if you have to have some belief in some "self" which has or exercises this "free will" thing then it is probably best to just pass on conceptualizing this "free-will" thing altogether.......is it important to ask or answer this question?.....it can in principle not be proved one way or the other anyway....there can never be a true resolution of the issue.
chownah
Until one has enough vipassana, one is going to "believe" in a self and believe in non-self. One has to start from where one is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply