Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:The person is real but transient. The person stubs her/his toe. The person loves and is aversive. The person laughs and cries. They are real.
The idea that they will have existence permanently in whole or part is the construct. Not just a mental construct but a psycho -social construct among psycho- social constructs.
What arises when you clench your hand is a fist. When you open your hand the fist does not arise. Nevertheless for the duration of your clenching the fist had reality as a fist. As that which in the English language is named "fist". Which is an action not a thing. A person is an action not a thing. It does have existence however while the conditions for its arising are present..
Good description. I think part of the problem is the definition of 'person' - whether we are referring to a person in the philosophical sense - the abstracted agent of choice and subject of experiences, (ie a self) which is what I meant - or whether we are referring to the aggregate of ever-changing physical and mental phenomena we call a 'human being' which is what you are talking about.

Otherwise I think we're in agreement.

What does not exist except as a mental construct is an ultimately real self - a fixed, agent of action and subject of experience. And only in regard to views about such a self do metaphysical questions about freewill or the lack of it make any sense.

I'm surprised that you don't know me better than to think I would claim the literal non-existence of human beings or other real phenomena Peter.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

I did of course notice your inverted commas around "person" Shonin. But not everyone reading the message boards as as familiar with that idea as are some others... :anjali:

Anyway does that mean you wont be sending me your dosh ? :smile:
Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:I did of course notice your inverted commas around "person" Shonin. But not everyone reading the message boards as as familiar with that idea as are some others... :anjali:

Anyway does that mean you wont be sending me your dosh ? :smile:
My dosh is non-existent... literally
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

I could lend you a few bob.
Shonin
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Shonin »

Thanks - but we'll get by. :)
User avatar
smokey
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by smokey »

"For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. The nature of this freedom is symbolized in an image used by the early Buddhists: flowing water. Sometimes the flow from the past is so strong that little can be done except to stand fast, but there are also times when the flow is gentle enough to be diverted in almost any direction." -Thanissaro Bhikkhu

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... karma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

Nice...

:anjali:
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by beeblebrox »

PeterB wrote:
Shonin wrote:The "person" who we think is in control is a mental construct.
The "person" who we think is NOT in control is a mental construct.

It's all self-views.

Phenomena just are. 'Me' being or not being in control doesn't come into it. It's a kind of clinging. The Buddhist practice is to see that and thus let go.
following that logic Shonin the person who posted that view is a mental construct, so send me all of your mentally constructed income for the next six months. I will supply a PO box number.
Sorry, but that's just bizarre logic. Why would the self being constructed suddenly mean that Shonin should give you his income? Seems like what he posted got turned into a wrong view...
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

It was a joke Beeblebrox, An old and running joke.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

The fact that there is, objectively, no choice is an inevitable consequence of the principle of causality.

But subjectively we do have a choice because we are not aware of everything that conditions us. Due to ignorance we think we are independent of the external world and of previous events in the internal world, so without knowledge of all the things that condition us we have the illusion of choice. But this illusion is real for us so we do, subjectively, have choice. That's why we must apply effort in the path to liberation.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by beeblebrox »

PeterB wrote:It was a joke Beeblebrox, An old and running joke.
I like jokes as much as anyone else, but not when it confuses the Dhamma. :tongue:
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by PeterB »

I apologise to the Dhamma for any confusion I caused it....
User avatar
Dharma Atma
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:40 pm
Location: Voronezh, Russia

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Dharma Atma »

If we have a look at this question out from more wide prospect that we'll get some more facts to be observed and discussed. We people are only the faint manifestations of the Great Emptiness. This Emptiness is so-called Absolute, the unmanifested Adi-Buddha. It's shunyata. And at the same time it is the only and the ultimate Subject.
The manifested world, Samsara, looks like a lightening in a night sky. It is... and in one moment it is not... Samsara is only one subtle and hardly visible thought into this Emptiness, or Subject, or Big Mind.
Well, continuing the example with lightening, we proseed that we're able to know that the lightening will definitely come to an end... we can even calculate what certain moment it will happen. In this scene it's perfectly known that the lightening will be over. So, Samsara will come to its end definitely. And there are some calculations among brahmans of India. The time period when Samsara exists they call "the Day of Brahma".
But, on the other hand, can we say how any particle in the lightening conduct? Can we calculate if any electron go here or there? We can't, and there's a law in phisics, the law of uncertainty (look, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). So, as a path of any electron can't be foreseen, so how a man behaves in an hour or two we can't say. 'Cause people have a free-will. And I cannot agree with the following:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The fact that there is, objectively, no choice is an inevitable consequence of the principle of causality.But subjectively we do have a choice because we are not aware of everything that conditions us.
The manifested world as a Whole has no free will, 'cause its end and its evolution goes according to certain laws. But - if we're "aware of everything that conditions us" or we are not - people can conduct as they like, and their behaviour will definitely be individual and unique. No one knows where the electron is in a second...
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by cooran »

Dharma Atma wrote:If we have a look at this question out from more wide prospect that we'll get some more facts to be observed and discussed. We people are only the faint manifestations of the Great Emptiness. This Emptiness is so-called Absolute, the unmanifested Adi-Buddha. It's shunyata. And at the same time it is the only and the ultimate Subject.
The manifested world, Samsara, looks like a lightening in a night sky. It is... and in one moment it is not... Samsara is only one subtle and hardly visible thought into this Emptiness, or Subject, or Big Mind.
Well, continuing the example with lightening, we proseed that we're able to know that the lightening will definitely come to an end... we can even calculate what certain moment it will happen. In this scene it's perfectly known that the lightening will be over. So, Samsara will come to its end definitely. And there are some calculations among brahmans of India. The time period when Samsara exists they call "the Day of Brahma".
But, on the other hand, can we say how any particle in the lightening conduct? Can we calculate if any electron go here or there? We can't, and there's a law in phisics, the law of uncertainty (look, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). So, as a path of any electron can't be foreseen, so how a man behaves in an hour or two we can't say. 'Cause people have a free-will. And I cannot agree with the following:
Modus.Ponens wrote:The fact that there is, objectively, no choice is an inevitable consequence of the principle of causality.But subjectively we do have a choice because we are not aware of everything that conditions us.
The manifested world as a Whole has no free will, 'cause its end and its evolution goes according to certain laws. But - if we're "aware of everything that conditions us" or we are not - people can conduct as they like, and their behaviour will definitely be individual and unique. No one knows where the electron is in a second...
Hello Dharma Atma,

Could you provide traceable links to the Suttas or Abhidhamma which will support what you have stated above?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Rui Sousa
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Free-will is it an illusion?

Post by Rui Sousa »

tiltbillings wrote:
Rui Sousa wrote:In my opinion there is will, but is it not free. It is not free because it is conditioned. But there is will. And actions, words and thoughts affected by that will.

Maybe it is just a question of gradient, because even in Christianity will is not absolutely free, because there are consequences for actions and there is the case of divine intervention guiding believers on their actions.

In my understanding of Buddhism "will" is not as free as in Christianity, which is not completely free there, and freer than in fatalist believes.
In Christianity, how can you act other than how god knows you are going to act AND how you act is a result of the very nature of the creation of that god.
The logical black holes of Christianity have always driven me elsewhere...
With Metta
Post Reply