Arahants Tears

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:10 pm

clw_uk wrote:Yes I have, through his dhamma.
Why can you not then meet Ajahn Maha Boowa through his Dhamma?
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:13 pm

The dhamma of his that I have come accross I dont agree with (the part about arahants crying), thats not to say I have read all of his teachings so my opinion can change.

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:16 pm

clw_uk wrote:The dhamma of his that I have come accross I dont agree with (the part about arahants crying), thats not to say I have read all of his teachings so my opinion can change.

:namaste:
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kosambi in a grove of trees. Then the Blessed One took up a few leaves in his hand and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more numerous: these few leaves that I have taken up in my hand or those in this grove of trees?"

"Venerable sir, the leaves that the Blessed One has taken up in his hand are few, but those in the grove of trees are numerous."

"So too, bhikkhus, the things I have directly known but have not taught you are more numerous, while the things I have taught you are few. And why, bhikkhus have I not taught those many things? Because they are unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life... and do not lead to peace......

Samyutta Nikaya V437-438

Maybe the Buddha left this subject out of his teachings as it is unbeneficial and irrelevant to to the holy life?

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:23 pm

Maybe so
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:26 pm

I am also of the view that an Arahant would not shed tears, BUT since the Buddha did not explicitly say so i will not discount it.

The Buddha:] "There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

[The Buddha:] "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth."

— MN 95

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:38 pm

The buddha has stated Arahants cant cry, at least in relation to delight or sadness, because the arahant has abandoned these.
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:42 pm

clw_uk wrote:The buddha has stated Arahants cant cry, at least in relation to delight or sadness, because the arahant has abandoned these.
Could you please show credible evidence from the pali canon or commentaries? You are posting mere hearsay. As ive stated i am of the same opinion but you cannot just say the Buddha said such and such without reference to the canon. Please show me where the Buddha has stated that there are no physical tears from an arahant.

:namaste:
Last edited by bodom on Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 pm

He seeing a form with the eye does not greed for a pleasant form, nor become averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a limitless mind, knowing the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely.Dispelling agreeing and disagreeing feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Neither delighted nor pleased with those feelings does not appropriate them. To him neither delighted, nor pleased and not appropriating those feelings the interest for them ceases.
He does not engage in aversion (sadness) or delight(joy)

He cannot cry because of sadness or joy.

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:48 pm

clw_uk wrote:
He seeing a form with the eye does not greed for a pleasant form, nor become averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a limitless mind, knowing the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely.Dispelling agreeing and disagreeing feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Neither delighted nor pleased with those feelings does not appropriate them. To him neither delighted, nor pleased and not appropriating those feelings the interest for them ceases.
He does not engage in aversion (sadness) or delight(joy)

He cannot cry because of sadness or joy.

:namaste:
That says nothing of physical tears.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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clw_uk
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:49 pm

I dont deny he cant cry if for example a fly hits him smack in the eye

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:54 pm

You are using logic to assume an arahant cannot cry.

So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher."

When you yourself reach arahantship then you can tell us all if you cry or not. Until then dont hold so tightly to your view.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:56 pm

The buddha didnt deny logics worth, just to be wary of it and dont rely on it.

From what I can understand they cant cry because of emotion, but i may be wrong.
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:59 pm

clw_uk wrote:The buddha didnt deny logics worth, just to be wary of it and dont rely on it.

From what I can understand they cant cry because of emotion, but i may be wrong.
Are arahants totally void of feeling emotion? Or have they just trancended attachment to feelings in which case they still feel them, but there would be no reaction to them?

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Arahants Tears

Post by clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:03 pm

Difficuly question, I have no definite answer.

How do you view this?

:namaste:
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bodom
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Re: Arahants Tears

Post by bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:Difficuly question, I have no definite answer.

How do you view this?

:namaste:
I dont know if i have a view either way just yet. I need to do some research into this as i dont believe ive come across this in any literature that i know of.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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