About not kill any living being

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kc2dpt
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by kc2dpt » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:32 pm

On the other hand, I have heard the way to ensure a human birth in one's next life is to adhere to the five precepts.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

Kenshou
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Kenshou » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:51 pm

But then, if you aren't sure about rebirth, that might not be a strong enough of a bargain. If you are then I guess it's a different situation.

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adosa
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by adosa » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:08 pm

Or on the other hand your re-birth might be as a mudpuppy if you passed away now, so you had better survive for awhile longer.


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:39 am

Wind wrote:
octathlon wrote: A tapeworm is infesting you and threatening your life, but you must not kill it?

That tapeworm scenario is a tough one. What would be the best solution?
That is a tough choice to make, indeed! :thinking:
"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!

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Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:09 pm

Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:08 pm

Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.
That's pretty creative, Goedert. :geek:
I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!

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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:05 pm

Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.
Hi Goedert,

The tapeworm already has a place with nutrients it likes, namely, your intestines! :shock: In other words, only by killing the tapeworm can it be removed from your body.

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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:21 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote: I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----
I remember once, my grandfather found how they (squirrels) were getting in his attic, and he put wire mesh over the holes and solved it. If tree branches are near a vent or hole in your attic wall or roof, both squirrels and rats can climb the tree and get in that way. Rats can also come in at the ground floor or foundation, so you need to check everywhere for holes and evidence (droppings) to show where they are coming in and seal it off. You can use live traps to remove them, but unless you seal off the attic or house, they will just come back in. Also, when you clean up your attic, you should wear a dust mask so you don't breath in anything...

:smile:

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adosa
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by adosa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:41 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Wind wrote:
octathlon wrote: A tapeworm is infesting you and threatening your life, but you must not kill it?

That tapeworm scenario is a tough one. What would be the best solution?
That is a tough choice to make, indeed! :thinking:
"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
-----
I'm not so sure that is entirely true. Not that I am advocating killing but the Suttas are full of examples of those who had less than stellar sila prior to stream-entry and yet insight still arose. In the greater scheme of things, curing yourself of a tapeworm so that you can continue towards stream-entry might be a preferable course of action than to succumb to death prior to any realization. Tough call. What would you do if a beloved family member had a tapeworm? Being worldly beings still (most of us anyway) sometime you have to put aside the philosophical speculation in favor of the practical.

Do you wash your bed sheets?


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Hi, Wind, Octathlon, Adosa --

"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
--------------------------------

"I'm not so sure that is entirely true. Not that I am advocating killing but the Suttas are full of examples of those who had less than stellar sila prior to stream-entry and yet insight still arose. In the greater scheme of things, curing yourself of a tapeworm so that you can continue towards stream-entry might be a preferable course of action than to succumb to death prior to any realization. Tough call. What would you do if a beloved family member had a tapeworm? Being worldly beings still (most of us anyway) sometime you have to put aside the philosophical speculation in favor of the practical.

Do you wash your bed sheets?


adosa
--------------------------------

What you said is a reasonable and practical thinking of worldly beings who are concerned about protection of themselves and their properties, even if they have to kill. But abstaining from killing, the very first precept, is far from philosophical speculation by all means. Purification of virtue is a requirement for Strem-entry. The suttas that are concerned with "perfect virtues" outnumber the exceptions (e.g. Angulimala, the bandit & murderer who turned into arahant), however.

Of course my bed sheets are always washed and kept clean! :pig:

Tep
----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:37 pm

octathlon wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote: I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----
I remember once, my grandfather found how they (squirrels) were getting in his attic, and he put wire mesh over the holes and solved it. If tree branches are near a vent or hole in your attic wall or roof, both squirrels and rats can climb the tree and get in that way. Rats can also come in at the ground floor or foundation, so you need to check everywhere for holes and evidence (droppings) to show where they are coming in and seal it off. You can use live traps to remove them, but unless you seal off the attic or house, they will just come back in. Also, when you clean up your attic, you should wear a dust mask so you don't breath in anything...

:smile:
Thank you so very much, my friend Octathlon. You gave me a very clear instruction. :heart:
I like it because now I have a choice to keep the uninvited "guests" outside my house, without killing them.

Sincerely,

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!

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bodom
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:38 pm

Hi Dhamma_Spoon

Do you have a source that states purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry?

The only qualifications regarding stream entry found in the suttas are as follows:
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. - — SN 55.5


How do you reconcile your statement that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry with the sutta at A IV 213, when a drunken layman, sobered up through the impact of meeting the Buddha for the first time, realized stream-entry during a gradual discourse?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

Kenshou
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Kenshou » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:50 pm

Actually, I've gotten the impression that as a matter of fact perfect sila is not a requirement for stream-entry, though of course pretty good sila probably is insofar as fairly good sila is complementary to the practice in general (enough to keep the mind unperturbed), and there are a number of suttas that even mention that a stream-enterer may do an "evil" deed, yet though because they do not conceal it and work towards improvement, they are not disqualified from sotapanna-hood. I'll try and dig up some references for that. At the moment I recall the Ratana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Any evil action he (the stream-enterer) may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness."

On one hand we should not trivialize what it means to be a sotapanna, but on the other hand we should also be aware of how things are going to be in reality. I think the suttas in general seem to allow an understandable degree of wiggle room in regards to virtue and other purification, since though a stream-enterer has understood the 4 noble truths and how it is that nibbana is attainable, they haven't uprooted the defilements yet, so some unwholesome kamma is probably going to keep happening. But, as the discourses have said, not any deed quite so bad as to lead to a real crappy rebirth.

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Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:14 pm

octathlon wrote:
Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.
Hi Goedert,

The tapeworm already has a place with nutrients it likes, namely, your intestines! :shock: In other words, only by killing the tapeworm can it be removed from your body.
Oh sorry, I do not know the mean of tapeworm, thought it was like and earthly worm...

What stupid statement of my! Let's laugh.

But anyway, still one can make it for insects, like ants, etc.

Kinds regards,
Goedert

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Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:26 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.
That's pretty creative, Goedert. :geek:
I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----
A time ago I used a trap in my work place, a used bought to caught a opossum.

Buy some glue trap for the rats or buy a box trap that don't kill but that close the door when they get the food.

The glue trap is used with a cheese, a banana or something they like. Then they will be caught and cant move. With a thick leather glove remove him in a far away place, you can try without the glove but they ceartainly will bite you fingers. Also we have to be cautious with theyre body, because the glue is very strong and we don't want that one of his members crushed or something.

The wooden box trap is easy one, you can buy them in that hunter houses, pet shops or you can make one. When they are caught you just have to open the box in the suitable place.

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